Win 7 vs Win 8


D

Dominique

Dave said:
On Wed, 05 Jun 2013 20:25:29 -0700, OldGuy wrote:
On the few occasions when such a user have windows 8, I find the
experience frustrating to say the least. To find things like shutdown, you
wave the mouse in the general direction of where you are supposed to wave
it, and if it's your lucky day something will appear where it is supposed
to appear. If you are even luckier, it will stick around long enough for
you to select what you want and click before you have to start the whole
process over.
<snip>

To shut down Win8 on my desktop (which has 2 monitors-1 is touch),

I go to the desktop (if I'm not already there), I press "Alt-F4" and then
"Enter" on the keyboard.

That's all there is to it.

HTH
 
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J

Juan Wei

Dominique has written on 6/7/2013 5:39 PM:
To shut down Win8 on my desktop (which has 2 monitors-1 is touch),

I go to the desktop (if I'm not already there), I press "Alt-F4" and then
"Enter" on the keyboard.
Shutdown or sleep/hybernate?
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

"OldGuy" wrote in message
New PC with Win 7 Pro installed and a disk to install Win 8.
Other than the Win 8 start screen that many dislike, what are the real
important differences?

i.e. are some Win 7 things fixed or improved?
new features?

Does the Win 8 install keep all Win 7 installed added apps or do I
start over after upgrading to Win 8?
I see no-one has answered that with either "it only does a new install,
not an upgrade", or "yes, it keeps them". Which is it? (Leaving aside
the usual arguments over whether upgrading [if it's actually available],
or a new install, is preferable.)
Old Guy,

Download and run the Upgrade Advisor and you'll see exactly what Win8
will support. Win8 does not support any 16 bit applications (XP era)
(64 bit, as others have said.)
[]
Win8 is fun to use on a tablet and I have a VivoTab that I use
everyday. But to answer your question, as for important differences -
what I consider important may not suit you at all. But its reported to
be more secure. You do not need 3rd party AV software, it has built-in
Doesn't that apply to 7 (and even XP these days, at least the lack of
need for third party, not the built-in)?
AV. It’s a different breed of OS and you need to get some hands-on
in order to make your own determinations.
That last sentence is about the first truly objective view I've seen
since 8 came out!
[]
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

[QUOTE="Paul said:
Nonsense! I run 16 bit DOS programs under Windows 8 Pro (32 bit) all
of the time.
The x64 version doesn't run 16 bit programs. It only has a WOW
subsystem capable of running 32 bit programs.

It is the x86 (32 bit) version of the OS, that can still handle
16 bit programs, via the appropriate Windows on Windows subsystem.

So if you had a collection of archaic program installers (some
32 bit programs use 16 bit installers), then perhaps the 32 bit
version of the OS would be a better choice.

*******

The two versions of WOW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WOW64

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_on_Windows

Paul[/QUOTE]

I suppose you can't run one WOW under the other? (Though if not, I don't
see _why_ not. OK, it might be inefficient, but if you've got a machine
capable of running 8 reasonably, then even with inefficiency it's
probably at least as fast as whatever you bought the original 16-bit
software for anyway).
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

In message <[email protected]>, Bob Henson
As the only one of our group who has been foolish enough to use Windows 8,
I get handed all the Windows 8 folks whose children have kindly but
thoughtlessly specified Windows 8 on the laptops they have bought for their
elderly parents. They cannot use them, of course - you would have to be
psychic to use Windows 8 "first rattle out of the box". I immediately do
Are you entirely sure of that - for a computer-unsavvy newcomer? _I_
certainly find it counter-intuitive (though haven't had enough of a play
with 8 to make a fair assessment), but I'd be interested to know if it
was any more or less difficult to pick up _by someone who'd never used a
computer before_. (Of course, any such person if asking for help from
one of us who has used earlier versions won't ...)
[]
I remember there were some things I didn't like about the transitions
from 3.x to '95, '95 to '98, and '98 to XP. I'm used to most of these by
now.
[]
 
P

Paul

J. P. Gilliver (John) said:
I suppose you can't run one WOW under the other?
Hmmm. Now why didn't I think of that ? :)

It's like antimatter. There'd be an explosion,
both WOWs would be annihilated, the space
created would be formless and void. And the
room you were in, would get a bit warmer :)

Paul
 
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K

Ken Blake

I see no-one has answered that with either "it only does a new install,
not an upgrade", or "yes, it keeps them". Which is it?

Either one--you can do an upgrade (as I did) or a clean installation.

(Leaving aside
the usual arguments over whether upgrading [if it's actually available],
or a new install, is preferable.)

If you do an upgrade from Windows 7, yes, it keeps the installed
applications.
 
K

Ken Blake

<snip>

To shut down Win8 on my desktop (which has 2 monitors-1 is touch),

I go to the desktop (if I'm not already there), I press "Alt-F4" and then
"Enter" on the keyboard.

To shut down Windows 8 on my desktop, I click the Start orb, then Shut
Down (I run Start8).
 
B

Bob Henson

J. P. Gilliver (John) said:
In message <[email protected]0tude.net>, Bob Henson
As the only one of our group who has been foolish enough to use Windows 8,
I get handed all the Windows 8 folks whose children have kindly but
thoughtlessly specified Windows 8 on the laptops they have bought for their
elderly parents. They cannot use them, of course - you would have to be
psychic to use Windows 8 "first rattle out of the box". I immediately do
Are you entirely sure of that - for a computer-unsavvy newcomer? _I_
certainly find it counter-intuitive (though haven't had enough of a play
with 8 to make a fair assessment), but I'd be interested to know if it
was any more or less difficult to pick up _by someone who'd never used a
computer before_. (Of course, any such person if asking for help from
one of us who has used earlier versions won't ...)
[]
I'm looking after two at the moment, both complete newcomers - and they
were totally baffled by Windows 8. I installed Classic Shell, and now we're
getting on fine. One of them who had been struggling with Windows 8 for a
while asked me why on earth the menu system wasn't included as standard as
it was so obviously better than "a mass of silly pictures" (his words) -
other than to tell him that it always used to be in every version of
Windows, I had no answer, of course. No logic - no answer.

Once you've talked them out of having anything to do with the utterly
dreadful Windows Live Mail (luckily, there's nothing in the operating
system to tell them about it so they may not even hear of it) and put
Thunderbird on they're fine and can start making progress. I don't think it
is just the elderly that need logic - waving a mouse pointer around the
edge of the screen hoping for a menu to pop up instead of clicking an
obvious start button is plainly stupid at any age. I've been doing it for
some time now and still can't find the damn thing first go. The folk that
use the laptop's inbuilt mouse pad have *no* hope. Maybe it's easier when
you poke at it with your finger, but I haven't had to use any tablet
computers yet so that's a dubious delight I have to come.

I remember there were some things I didn't like about the transitions
from 3.x to '95, '95 to '98, and '98 to XP. I'm used to most of these by
now.
Likewise, and, like most people, I like that with which I am familiar.
However, I am quite prepared to admit when something is actually easier and
better and thus happy to change to the new version. When I first got the
dreaded Vista the first thing I did was made the interface look like XP -
but when I got Windows 7 I gave the Legoland interface (as we called it)
another go and realised it was actually slightly easier to use. I still
don't like the fact that it takes me two clicks to get to the "All
Programs" list instead on the one click it took before, but I'm not tempted
to go back. When I install Classic Shell to make Windows 8 useable I pick
the Windows 7 interface style out of choice, although some users find the
XP style more clear.

All of those versions that you mentioned posed an odd problem or two, but
there were none that I could not use immediately until Windows 8 came
along. Several versions of Linux presented no problems whatever to use
immediately they were installed. For the first time with Windows 8 I had to
use Google to find out how to use the darned interface, (it took me half a
hour to find out how to shut it down) and not until I found Classic Shell
could I use it freely.

Sorry I've rambled on so long, but the sheer and total stupidity of Windows
8 makes me quite angry.

--
Bob
Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England

It's not the pace of life that concerns me, it's the sudden stop at the
end.
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

Somewhat rare, these days, of course.
[]
I'm looking after two at the moment, both complete newcomers - and they
Never used an ATM, FreeView box (TV addon box), most TVs, even some
washing machines, ...?
were totally baffled by Windows 8. I installed Classic Shell, and now we're
getting on fine. One of them who had been struggling with Windows 8 for a
while asked me why on earth the menu system wasn't included as standard as
it was so obviously better than "a mass of silly pictures" (his words) -
Interesting. I'm pleased at his use of "obviously", especially if he
really was a computer newcomer; it does support my own view that
graphical (to this extent!) isn't always best.
other than to tell him that it always used to be in every version of
Windows, I had no answer, of course. No logic - no answer.

Once you've talked them out of having anything to do with the utterly
dreadful Windows Live Mail (luckily, there's nothing in the operating
system to tell them about it so they may not even hear of it) and put
(Good.)

Thunderbird on they're fine and can start making progress. I don't think it
is just the elderly that need logic - waving a mouse pointer around the
No; in my (limited) experience, the elderly are a lot more open to some
things than people expect. I still find my (rare) cases of computer
newcomers among the middle-aged and even younger - people who've never
seen that they need to get involved with computers. Probably not anyone
under about 30ish now, though, as schooling has involved their use for
about that long.
edge of the screen hoping for a menu to pop up instead of clicking an
obvious start button is plainly stupid at any age. I've been doing it for
Well, it obviously didn't seem so for whoever thought of it - and at
least to some extent to his/her supervisor, and those on whom they tried
it out (they must have done _some_ of that, surely).
some time now and still can't find the damn thing first go. The folk that
use the laptop's inbuilt mouse pad have *no* hope. Maybe it's easier when
you poke at it with your finger, but I haven't had to use any tablet
computers yet so that's a dubious delight I have to come.
You and me both. But remember that the younger generation (not just them
- just a convenient shorthand) _are_ used to jabbing all the time, on
their handheld devices (which they probably call 'phones).
Likewise, and, like most people, I like that with which I am familiar.
That's what I'm trying to guard against in myself.
However, I am quite prepared to admit when something is actually easier and
better and thus happy to change to the new version. When I first got the
Though I bet you - like me - take some convincing.
dreaded Vista the first thing I did was made the interface look like XP -
but when I got Windows 7 I gave the Legoland interface (as we called it)
another go and realised it was actually slightly easier to use. I still
don't like the fact that it takes me two clicks to get to the "All
Programs" list instead on the one click it took before, but I'm not tempted
Took me a long time to actually get used to XP after '9x; there are
still things I hanker for, but the (much-vaunted to the extent that I
used to find it very irritating) increased stability _is_ worth having,
and of course the better hardware (mainly USB) support. (And it amuses
me that XP users and beyond have to click on "Advanced" to change many
things about screen appearance, whereas '9x folk were considered capable
of handling such matters.)
[]
All of those versions that you mentioned posed an odd problem or two, but
there were none that I could not use immediately until Windows 8 came
Well, I still find finding certain things in 7 (which I don't yet have
myself) hard to find. (And I _think_ I did in XP.) So "use immediately -
with limitations" would describe my experience. My one real experience
of 8 so far was similar, in that I could do the few things I wanted/had
time to do (other than escape from the video player).
along. Several versions of Linux presented no problems whatever to use
immediately they were installed. For the first time with Windows 8 I had to
use Google to find out how to use the darned interface, (it took me half a
But how long did it take you with DOS/W3.x/'95/'98/XP/Vista? Or rather,
how long would it have taken you if you _hadn't_ used the previous ones?

My contention is that 8 is a _major_ change in how to do things, but not
_necessarily_ a change for the worse. I suspect it certainly is a change
for the worse _for me_, and probably for most of us who have used any
previous Windows - and possibly even Linux, Mac, and other OSs.

I guess part of my reaction (and many may be wondering why I am even
bothering to express a view, since I have neither 7 nor 8!), is because
of the vitriolic reactions I've seen, especially in this newsgroup: I
get the impression that many people just gave it one look, and said
"ooh, nasty". Many of them didn't even seem to have realised that TIFKAM
was only the _default_ interface, and that there _was_ (is) a
desktop-like one available too, even without Classic Shell (though some
_application_ creators haven't made their applications "play nice" - or
in some cases at all - with the desktop-like one).
hour to find out how to shut it down) and not until I found Classic Shell
could I use it freely.

Sorry I've rambled on so long, but the sheer and total stupidity of Windows
8 makes me quite angry.
I think it will me too, until I install Classic Shell (or StarDate).
Assuming I ever get 8 that is! I find my time is sufficiently occupied
by actually _doing_ things with my (XP!) computer, that changing it - or
its OS - is pretty low on my list of things to do. It might be W9 by the
time I _have_ to change.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Anyone can do any amount of work provided it isn't the work he is supposed to
be
doing at the moment. -Robert Benchley, humorist, drama critic, and actor
(1889-1945)
 
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J

Juan Wei

J. P. Gilliver (John) has written on 6/8/2013 9:11 AM:
Bob Henson said:
J. P. Gilliver (John) said:
In message <[email protected]>, Bob Henson
[]
As the only one of our group who has been foolish enough to use Windows 8,
I get handed all the Windows 8 folks whose children have kindly but
thoughtlessly specified Windows 8 on the laptops they have bought for their
elderly parents. They cannot use them, of course - you would have to be
psychic to use Windows 8 "first rattle out of the box". I immediately do

Are you entirely sure of that - for a computer-unsavvy newcomer? _I_
Somewhat rare, these days, of course.
You're joking, right?
No; in my (limited) experience, the elderly are a lot more open to some
things than people expect.
Living in an "over-55" community for a dozen years: my experience is
quite the opposite.
 
J

Juan Wei

Alias has written on 6/8/2013 11:49 AM:
That's not "elder". 55 is a young kid. I'm almost 70 and learned how to
use Linux a few years ago and in my spare time I fix computers and do
SEO work. What is the background of these "over-55" folks, farming? Are
they Republicans? Or, worse yet, are they Republicans from Texas?
OVER-55. If everyone who lives here now moved in when they were 55,
they'd be almost 70 now.

You're wonderful. But not typical.

We have some farmers, lawyers, financial people, etc. Quite a mix.

Less than half admit to leaning right.

I don't think that anyone here is from Texas.
 
S

Steve Hayes

Bob Henson said:
J. P. Gilliver (John) said:
In message <[email protected]>, Bob Henson
[]
As the only one of our group who has been foolish enough to use Windows 8,
I get handed all the Windows 8 folks whose children have kindly but
thoughtlessly specified Windows 8 on the laptops they have bought for their
elderly parents. They cannot use them, of course - you would have to be
psychic to use Windows 8 "first rattle out of the box". I immediately do

Are you entirely sure of that - for a computer-unsavvy newcomer? _I_
Somewhat rare, these days, of course.
[]
I'm looking after two at the moment, both complete newcomers - and they
Never used an ATM, FreeView box (TV addon box), most TVs, even some
washing machines, ...?
I can use a computer for quite a lot of things, but I have to call my son to
switch on the TV. Whenever I try to do it myself I get a blank blue screen.
 
C

chicagofan

Bob said:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

<snip>

All of those versions that you mentioned posed an odd problem or two, but
there were none that I could not use immediately until Windows 8 came
along. Several versions of Linux presented no problems whatever to use
immediately they were installed. For the first time with Windows 8 I had to
use Google to find out how to use the darned interface, (it took me half a
hour to find out how to shut it down) and not until I found Classic Shell
could I use it freely.

Sorry I've rambled on so long, but the sheer and total stupidity of Windows
8 makes me quite angry.
You certainly aren't alone! :) I made the mistake of buying my
daughter a new laptop with Win 8, thinking the $130 discount to move it,
would allay some of the distress dealing with it. It definitely did
not, and I truly don't know why anyone would buy this O/S unless there
were NO other choice.

I have no desire to use Windows phone, and this forced use [bypass] of
their GUI has made me want to dump Windows period. I wish I weren't too
old to adopt Linux, but I still have Win 7. However, there's no help
for my daughter... because she just wants to open her laptop and see
only what she wants. ;)
bj
 
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J

Juan Wei

chicagofan has written on 6/8/2013 5:23 PM:
You certainly aren't alone! :) I made the mistake of buying my
daughter a new laptop with Win 8, thinking the $130 discount to move it,
would allay some of the distress dealing with it. It definitely did
not, and I truly don't know why anyone would buy this O/S unless there
were NO other choice.

I have no desire to use Windows phone, and this forced use [bypass] of
their GUI has made me want to dump Windows period. I wish I weren't too
old to adopt Linux, but I still have Win 7. However, there's no help
for my daughter... because she just wants to open her laptop and see
only what she wants. ;)
There are many third-party applications that will restore the Start
Button and Start Menu, boot directly to the old desktop, etc.

They have been discussed in alt.comp.os.windows-8
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

[QUOTE="Juan Wei said:
Bob Henson said:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: []
Are you entirely sure of that - for a computer-unsavvy newcomer? _I_
Somewhat rare, these days, of course.
You're joking, right?[/QUOTE]

Not at all, in the circles I move in in UK, at least: there are few
people who don't have some experience of computers, even if they don't
know that they do (because the computers aren't called computers, but
phones, TVs, cars, ...). Plus - in the case of many older folk - their
grandchildren are into such things.
Living in an "over-55" community for a dozen years: my experience is
quite the opposite.
I suppose maybe I should have said that some of the most resistant folk
I've encountered are _not_ necessarily elderly.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... her greatest triumph to date has been doggy-paddling to each area of the
shipping forecast. - Eddie Mair (on Charlotte Green), Radio Times 13-19
October 2012
 
J

Juan Wei

J. P. Gilliver (John) has written on 6/8/2013 6:05 PM:
I suppose maybe I should have said that some of the most resistant folk
I've encountered are _not_ necessarily elderly.
Good lord. What a statement!

I think you will find that, in general, older people like change less
than they did when they were younger, regardless of the nature of the
change.

If you want to get anecdotal, a very good friend of mine, highly
educated and quite smart, just doesn't get computers. He has a XP
computer that I set up for him and that I maintain at a distance, but
all he can do is surf and email, and any error message has him heading
for the Scotch bottle!
 
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P

Paul

chicagofan said:
Bob said:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

<snip>

All of those versions that you mentioned posed an odd problem or two, but
there were none that I could not use immediately until Windows 8 came
along. Several versions of Linux presented no problems whatever to use
immediately they were installed. For the first time with Windows 8 I
had to
use Google to find out how to use the darned interface, (it took me
half a
hour to find out how to shut it down) and not until I found Classic Shell
could I use it freely.

Sorry I've rambled on so long, but the sheer and total stupidity of
Windows
8 makes me quite angry.
You certainly aren't alone! :) I made the mistake of buying my
daughter a new laptop with Win 8, thinking the $130 discount to move it,
would allay some of the distress dealing with it. It definitely did
not, and I truly don't know why anyone would buy this O/S unless there
were NO other choice.

I have no desire to use Windows phone, and this forced use [bypass] of
their GUI has made me want to dump Windows period. I wish I weren't too
old to adopt Linux, but I still have Win 7. However, there's no help
for my daughter... because she just wants to open her laptop and see
only what she wants. ;)
bj
A laptop would have an OEM version of Windows on it.

You would have downgrade rights, to go from Windows 8 to Windows 7.
I presume you take this up, with the company that made the laptop.

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/downgrade_rights.aspx#fbid=yMu9n7qGHZE

"Windows 8 Pro includes downgrade rights to:

* Windows 7 Professional
* Windows Vista Business
"

First step, is determining what version of Windows is on the Win8
laptop, then see what downgrade rights exist. If it was a Starter
edition, perhaps it cannot be downgraded.

The laptop manufacturer may give you some baloney about
"no drivers for Windows 7", but if they have a Windows 7
DVD to offer, get them to send it anyway and worry about the
drivers later. The main thing, is to get a disc (presumably
licensed by the SLIC in the BIOS). It would be nice to have
a COA to place on the machine, but you can't have everything.
I don't know if the Windows 8 COA current on the exterior of
the laptop, would be suitable for Windows 7 or not. The COA is
used, in case the computer ever dies and you need to use
a different installer DVD to restore it. The license key string
printed on the COA, is *not* the same value as the one
currently in the (SLIC based) installation. They're different
classes of keys.

When you receive a new Dell/Acer/Gateway/HP computer, one
of your first steps is recording the license key string
printed on the COA, in a safe place. A number of people have managed
to scratch up the COA sticker enough, they cannot read it
three years from now when they need it.

At least one laptop maker, now puts the COA sticker in the battery
bay, to protect it from scratching and abrasion.

Paul
 

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