Win 7 and XP mixed network


J

John Ferrell

Here is the problem so far:

If you have a Win 7 machine in a network of XP machines that were
patched as patches became available, everything works well.

If you must reload an XP system and use the SP3 full file from
Microsoft you will miss the "Link Layer Topology Discovery (LLTD)
Responder"that came in SP2. Everything you do with MicroStiff will
have you trying to install the SP2 Patch and the machine will not
accept it because it is at SP3.

I have 1 XP system that works fine. I have two that will not play nice
with networking.

One is a regen after a hardware crash disk and the other quit
networking after I fell back 30 days on a restore point.

I need a simple, by the numbers recipe that I can follow to restore my
network up to full operation.

It is interesting that Vista/W7 broke the network and XP needs the
patch?

This appears to be intentional sabotage from MS, otherwise they would
do the right thing!
John Ferrell W8CCW
 
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P

Paul

John said:
Here is the problem so far:

If you have a Win 7 machine in a network of XP machines that were
patched as patches became available, everything works well.

If you must reload an XP system and use the SP3 full file from
Microsoft you will miss the "Link Layer Topology Discovery (LLTD)
Responder"that came in SP2. Everything you do with MicroStiff will
have you trying to install the SP2 Patch and the machine will not
accept it because it is at SP3.

I have 1 XP system that works fine. I have two that will not play nice
with networking.

One is a regen after a hardware crash disk and the other quit
networking after I fell back 30 days on a restore point.

I need a simple, by the numbers recipe that I can follow to restore my
network up to full operation.

It is interesting that Vista/W7 broke the network and XP needs the
patch?

This appears to be intentional sabotage from MS, otherwise they would
do the right thing!
John Ferrell W8CCW
There is a file for SP2 (immediate download), while the one for SP3
is a Hotfix Request. The link for the SP3 Hotfix comes in an email
they send you. And this is the link to the file.

( http://help.wugnet.com/vista/View-Full-Map-Network-Mapftopic-35060-days0-orderasc-24.html )

http://hotfixv4.microsoft.com/Windows XP/sp4/Fix215806/2600/free/350011_ENU_i386_zip.exe

Inside that file is a manifest. It maps the components in the ZIP
to the file names the installer will use. This is the content of the
V6 manifest as delivered in that link today. Since I was using
7ZIP, the file names are things like _sfx_0000._p

************* _sfx_manifest SP3 LLTD hotfix **************
[Options]

Run = "update\update.exe"
PatchDLL = "_sfx_.dll"

[Deltas]

"update\update.exe" = "_sfx_0000._p", "_sfx_.dll"
"spuninst.exe" = "_sfx_0001._p", "update\update.exe"
"update\updspapi.dll" = "_sfx_0002._p", "update\update.exe"
"SP3QFE\ic\rspndr.inf" = "_sfx_0003._p", "update\update.exe"
"SP2QFE\ic\rspndr.inf" = "_sfx_0004._p", "SP3QFE\ic\rspndr.inf"
"update\update.ver" = "_sfx_0005._p", "SP2QFE\ic\rspndr.inf"
"update\update_SP3QFE.inf" = "_sfx_0006._p", "update\update.exe"
"update\update_SP2QFE.inf" = "_sfx_0007._p", "update\update_SP3QFE.inf"
"SP2QFE\ip\rspndr.adm" = "_sfx_0008._p", "update\update_SP3QFE.inf"
"SP3QFE\rspndr.sys" = "_sfx_0009._p", "update\updspapi.dll"
"SP2QFE\rspndr.sys" = "_sfx_0010._p", "SP3QFE\rspndr.sys"
"spupdsvc.exe" = "_sfx_0011._p", "spuninst.exe"
"SP3QFE\rspndr.exe" = "_sfx_0012._p", "spupdsvc.exe"
"SP2QFE\rspndr.exe" = "_sfx_0013._p", "SP3QFE\rspndr.exe"
"update\updatebr.inf" = "_sfx_0014._p", "update\update.exe"
"update\branches.inf" = "_sfx_0015._p", "update\update_SP3QFE.inf"
"update\eula.txt" = "_sfx_0016._p", "update\update.exe"
"update\spcustom.dll" = "_sfx_0017._p", "update\updspapi.dll"
"update\KB922120-v6.CAT" = "_sfx_0018._p", "update\update.exe"
"spmsg.dll" = "_sfx_0019._p", "update\updspapi.dll"

[Copy]

"SP2QFE\ip\rspndr.inf" = "SP2QFE\ic\rspndr.inf"
"SP3QFE\ip\rspndr.adm" = "SP2QFE\ip\rspndr.adm"
"SP3QFE\ip\rspndr.inf" = "SP3QFE\ic\rspndr.inf"

[Delete]

"_sfx_*._p"
"_sfx_.dll"
*******************************************************************

I haven't installed it yet, and I read one claim it doesn't work.
Time will tell I guess. You can test it for us.

If I test it, I'll have to do a backup first.

Paul
 
N

Nil

It is interesting that Vista/W7 broke the network and XP needs the
patch?
But it doesn't need the patch. My XP system does not have the LLTD
Responder installed, and it networks just fine with the Vista and
Windows 7 computers on my network.
 
J

John Ferrell

It took me a while to understand what you were saying. It did appear
to install the LLT. I am out of time for the moment, will continue
later...
Thanks, even if it don't solve my problem I have learned a bit more!
There is a file for SP2 (immediate download), while the one for SP3
is a Hotfix Request. The link for the SP3 Hotfix comes in an email
they send you. And this is the link to the file.

( http://help.wugnet.com/vista/View-Full-Map-Network-Mapftopic-35060-days0-orderasc-24.html )

http://hotfixv4.microsoft.com/Windows XP/sp4/Fix215806/2600/free/350011_ENU_i386_zip.exe

Inside that file is a manifest. It maps the components in the ZIP
to the file names the installer will use. This is the content of the
V6 manifest as delivered in that link today. Since I was using
7ZIP, the file names are things like _sfx_0000._p

************* _sfx_manifest SP3 LLTD hotfix **************
[Options]

Run = "update\update.exe"
PatchDLL = "_sfx_.dll"

[Deltas]

"update\update.exe" = "_sfx_0000._p", "_sfx_.dll"
"spuninst.exe" = "_sfx_0001._p", "update\update.exe"
"update\updspapi.dll" = "_sfx_0002._p", "update\update.exe"
"SP3QFE\ic\rspndr.inf" = "_sfx_0003._p", "update\update.exe"
"SP2QFE\ic\rspndr.inf" = "_sfx_0004._p", "SP3QFE\ic\rspndr.inf"
"update\update.ver" = "_sfx_0005._p", "SP2QFE\ic\rspndr.inf"
"update\update_SP3QFE.inf" = "_sfx_0006._p", "update\update.exe"
"update\update_SP2QFE.inf" = "_sfx_0007._p", "update\update_SP3QFE.inf"
"SP2QFE\ip\rspndr.adm" = "_sfx_0008._p", "update\update_SP3QFE.inf"
"SP3QFE\rspndr.sys" = "_sfx_0009._p", "update\updspapi.dll"
"SP2QFE\rspndr.sys" = "_sfx_0010._p", "SP3QFE\rspndr.sys"
"spupdsvc.exe" = "_sfx_0011._p", "spuninst.exe"
"SP3QFE\rspndr.exe" = "_sfx_0012._p", "spupdsvc.exe"
"SP2QFE\rspndr.exe" = "_sfx_0013._p", "SP3QFE\rspndr.exe"
"update\updatebr.inf" = "_sfx_0014._p", "update\update.exe"
"update\branches.inf" = "_sfx_0015._p", "update\update_SP3QFE.inf"
"update\eula.txt" = "_sfx_0016._p", "update\update.exe"
"update\spcustom.dll" = "_sfx_0017._p", "update\updspapi.dll"
"update\KB922120-v6.CAT" = "_sfx_0018._p", "update\update.exe"
"spmsg.dll" = "_sfx_0019._p", "update\updspapi.dll"

[Copy]

"SP2QFE\ip\rspndr.inf" = "SP2QFE\ic\rspndr.inf"
"SP3QFE\ip\rspndr.adm" = "SP2QFE\ip\rspndr.adm"
"SP3QFE\ip\rspndr.inf" = "SP3QFE\ic\rspndr.inf"

[Delete]

"_sfx_*._p"
"_sfx_.dll"
*******************************************************************

I haven't installed it yet, and I read one claim it doesn't work.
Time will tell I guess. You can test it for us.

If I test it, I'll have to do a backup first.

Paul
John Ferrell W8CCW
 
Z

z

This appears to be intentional sabotage from MS, otherwise they would
do the right thing!
You're right. Don't hold your breath for them to do the right thing,
cause there's no money in it for micr$oft.
 
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C

charlie

You... you... you LACKY, you!


If you're not part of the paranoia, you're part of the conspiracy.
Something akin to the "mixed network" problem occurred years ago, and
involved lanman and netbios, as well as other software that was
installed automatically in previous versions of windows.
You had to manually install the software after windows was installed.
At least it was on most of the win install disks.
 
W

...winston

The LLTD doesn't do 'networking'...it's presence on XP allows Vista/Win7 to draw a map (in the Vista/Win7 network topology section
of Vista/Win7) of the connected computers so XP appears on said map.

I.e. its presence or lack of does not prevent networking XP to Vista or Win7 or vice versa nor sharing files/folders/printers etc.

LLTD is/was included in the full XPSp3 RTM released version (e.g. on MSDN, retail) but not in the SP3 Service Pack.


--
....winston
msft mvp mail


"Nil" wrote in message
It is interesting that Vista/W7 broke the network and XP needs the
patch?
But it doesn't need the patch. My XP system does not have the LLTD
Responder installed, and it networks just fine with the Vista and
Windows 7 computers on my network.
 
N

Nil

The LLTD doesn't do 'networking'...it's presence on XP allows
Vista/Win7 to draw a map (in the Vista/Win7 network topology
section of Vista/Win7) of the connected computers so XP appears on
said map.

I.e. its presence or lack of does not prevent networking XP to
Vista or Win7 or vice versa nor sharing files/folders/printers
etc.
Thank you for clarifying that. This misinformation has been going
around here lately. I wasn't sure what LLTD did exactly, but I knew its
absence wasn't preventing my XP systems from networking with my Win7
systems.
 
J

John Williamson

....winston said:
The LLTD doesn't do 'networking'...it's presence on XP allows Vista/Win7
to draw a map (in the Vista/Win7 network topology section of Vista/Win7)
of the connected computers so XP appears on said map.

I.e. its presence or lack of does not prevent networking XP to Vista or
Win7 or vice versa nor sharing files/folders/printers etc.

LLTD is/was included in the full XPSp3 RTM released version (e.g. on
MSDN, retail) but not in the SP3 Service Pack.
That would explain why some posters are having no problems at all, and
others are having problems.

I installed using XP SP2 upgrade media, and needed to manually install
it, despite having updated to SP3.
 
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P

Paul

Nil said:
Thank you for clarifying that. This misinformation has been going
around here lately. I wasn't sure what LLTD did exactly, but I knew its
absence wasn't preventing my XP systems from networking with my Win7
systems.
There are multiple methods to locate devices on the network.

This article shows how to prevent some of the legacy paths.
Remove "Client for Microsoft Networks", hobble NetBIOS, and so on.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/837030

This article hints at some of the avenues open to Windows 7,
to detect the presence of devices (more than just computers
with shares though). Complexity like this is fine... as long
as it always works properly. And that's what some people here
are complaining about, that the job was not well done. Sure,
you can screw around with it, until you get it working, but that's
not why we pay the big bucks for a "new" OS. Microsoft appears
to have put the appropriate fall-back paths in their software,
but the quality just isn't there (it should work, but it doesn't).

http://blogs.technet.com/b/networking/archive/2010/12/06/disabling-network-discovery-network-resources.aspx?Redirected=true

If LLTD wasn't really essential, then this stuff would always work,
and it doesn't. I've seen it here. Non-reproducible behavior,
which is not modified by boot order (you can boot the WinXP machine
first, or the Win 7 machine first, and the behavior doesn't change.)

I'm not going to whine about it - it's about the same quality
as any other OS. For example, in Linux, if you didn't install
SAMBA/CIFS or whatever, you might never see a dialog suitable for
making connections to a Windows share. No OS is perfect, when it comes
to getting the details right. The user has to figure out what is missing,
and correct it.

The proof it can be done right, is the existence of third party
tools like "Network Magic". It's proof that if you put enough effort
into it, you can make it work. Not that I'm going to spend
good money on it.

Paul
 
N

Nil

That would explain why some posters are having no problems at all,
and others are having problems.

I installed using XP SP2 upgrade media, and needed to manually
install it, despite having updated to SP3.
Well, no, that wouldn't explain it. You don't need LLTD to network XP
and Win7 computers. If I'm reading Winston's explanation, he says you
only need it if you want your XP computers to appear in the pretty
picture Win7 displays of the network. However, I find that when I
browse my home network with in Win7, I can see all the computers,
including my XP SP2 system, even though it doesn't have LLTD
installed. So, I'm not really sure what purpose it servers, but it
doesn't seem to be essential.
 
C

Char Jackson

That would explain why some posters are having no problems at all, and
others are having problems.

I installed using XP SP2 upgrade media, and needed to manually install
it, despite having updated to SP3.
I don't have it installed, and as far as I can tell I don't need it.
My XP-7 networking works just fine without it.
 
W

...winston

You're welcome.
The same misinformation has been around since Vista was released and folks 'assumed' that if Vista couldn't draw a **picture** of
the mapped computers (available in the Network and Sharing Center) that their networking problems were related. Wrong then and
still wrong on Win7. It (LLTD)serves no other purpose. In fact part of its name gives a clue (TD) topology discovery - i.e.
discover (find) and topology (view based on a study of a surface).


--
....winston
msft mvp mail


"Nil" wrote in message
The LLTD doesn't do 'networking'...it's presence on XP allows
Vista/Win7 to draw a map (in the Vista/Win7 network topology
section of Vista/Win7) of the connected computers so XP appears on
said map.

I.e. its presence or lack of does not prevent networking XP to
Vista or Win7 or vice versa nor sharing files/folders/printers
etc.
Thank you for clarifying that. This misinformation has been going
around here lately. I wasn't sure what LLTD did exactly, but I knew its
absence wasn't preventing my XP systems from networking with my Win7
systems.
 
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Z

z

SNIP
Well, no, that wouldn't explain it. You don't need LLTD to network XP
and Win7 computers. If I'm reading Winston's explanation, he says you
only need it if you want your XP computers to appear in the pretty
picture Win7 displays of the network. However, I find that when I
browse my home network with in Win7, I can see all the computers,
including my XP SP2 system, even though it doesn't have LLTD
installed. So, I'm not really sure what purpose it servers, but it
doesn't seem to be essential.
Listen moron, just because it works on your computer doesn't mean it
"has" to work on everyones else's computer.

If you have to be a micro$oft lackie, be a quiet one. Other people here
will sort the problem out, you just sit there qietly and read. You
might even learn something.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Listen moron, just because it works on your computer doesn't mean it
"has" to work on everyones else's computer.
If you have to be a micro$oft lackie, be a quiet one. Other people here
will sort the problem out, you just sit there qietly and read. You
might even learn something.
At least spell "lackey" correctly.
 
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N

Nil

Listen moron, just because it works on your computer doesn't mean
it "has" to work on everyones else's computer.
If I thought you were trying to dispute my statement, I'd say you had
completely failed. However, I recognize that you're sulking and licking
your wounded ego, and in that you're doing real well.
If you have to be a micro$oft lackie, be a quiet one. Other
people here will sort the problem out, you just sit there qietly
and read. You might even learn something.
How's your networking going, eh? Mine's going great!
 

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