Classic Shell


W

Wildman

Are you sure about it? Why aren't you using it then instead of
complaining about Windows 8?
Since you didn't see my sig from my last post
here it is again.

Look down ↓
 
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K

Ken Springer

Which one? Why aren't people using them? They seem to be spending more
time here complaining about how terrible is windows 8.
Why aren't people using them. One of the questions I've always had when
someone complains about any OS. People will switch TVs, cars, etc., but
not computers.

But, I'd bet for the majority, they only know of two computer systems,
Windows and OS X. They don't like Apple's pricing, have never heard
of/seen Linux, so they stick with Windows.




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 20.0
Thunderbird 17.0.5
LibreOffice 4.0.3.3
 
S

Steve Hayes

I skipped 2007 but I still hate 2010. AFAICS the problem is that the
design gives every main heading the same amount of ribbon space, so
things get put where they will fit rather than where they logically
belong.

I'm an occasional Word/Excel user rather than a regular user, so after
three years or so I still haven't got used to the ribbon, and I really
loathe it. It's designed to look good rather than to be effective. Other
modern apps are much more effective, mainly through careful design of
user-configurable toolbars.
I have Office 2010 on my laptop and 1997 on my desktop (so if anyone sends me
a .docx document, I open and read it in LibreOffice).

If I start a new Word document, I do it in 1997, because I know how to use it,
and can make styles work. Every time I've tried to do it in 2010, I've given
up, and saved the document as .doc, and set up the styles in 1997. Then I can
edit and add to it in 2010, and footnotes and index referencees are easier to
apply in 2010.
 
M

Mike Barnes

Ken Springer said:
Why aren't people using them. One of the questions I've always had
when someone complains about any OS. People will switch TVs, cars,
etc., but not computers.
Isn't the answer obvious? When you change your car, even to a different
brand, you don't need significant re-education or to buy new software.
 
S

Steve Hayes

Isn't the answer obvious? When you change your car, even to a different
brand, you don't need significant re-education or to buy new software.
Changing your car is a bad analogy.

A better one would be changing your fuel to stuff that your car won't run on.
 
K

Ken Springer

Changing your car is a bad analogy.

A better one would be changing your fuel to stuff that your car won't run on.
I don't think it's that simple, actually.

For the computer OS itself, I don't think significant re-eduction is
needed anymore, unless you are switching to a tablet style OS, which can
be a setback. The biggest difference between Windows and OS X, to me,
is the difference in Windows Explorer and OS X Finder. Next would be
terminology, shortcut vs. alias for example. But, the actual workings
are the same.

For the programs, is there a real difference to switching from Word (Win
version) to Pages (Mac)? Not so much, IMO. Sure, things are in
different places between the two, but then there was the switch to the
ribbon in Word.

And yes, I know Word is available for the Mac. :)

I must have a dozen thoughts as to why people don't switch, but I think
it boils down to people don't understand the potential computers for
their daily life. That if they were to learn more of the basic
capabilities, then went looking for the tools that fit them, there would
not be the resistance to change.

Simple case in point, I've struggled with the bugs I've found in Libre
Office and Thunderbird since buying this Mac in 2009. Windows XP
machine self-destructed. Now, I'm gone back to my old habits of looking
for what works for me, and reliably, and will be dumping LO. I'm going
to wait for the super duper major upgrade to Thunderbird before looking
for a replacement there.

For LO, I found a specialized word processor, Scrivener, that just
doesn't seem like it could be made better for me and a couple projects
I'm working on. It's for scriptwriting, and plays, but like Windows
Libraries, I'm using it in a different manner, and making it work for
me. Neither Word, LO, Pages, or any other text processor will work this
way, AFAIK.

Yes, I'll have to pay for it, but the savings in time and energy is well
worth it.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 22.0
Thunderbird 17.0.7
LibreOffice 4.0.4.2
 
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K

Ken Blake

Why aren't people using them. One of the questions I've always had when
someone complains about any OS. People will switch TVs, cars, etc., but
not computers.

Changing from one brand to another is more or less difficult depending
on what kind of a thing those brands are. I've been in all the
following situations:

Put me in the driver's seat of almost any car, even one I've never
seen before, and I can drive it with no problems at all. Put me in
front of almost any television set, even one I've never seen before,
and I can turn it on, change channels, and adjust the volume.

But put me in front of an Apple computer or one running Linux, and I
don't know how to do anything.
 
P

(PeteCresswell)

Per Ken Blake:
But put me in front of an Apple computer or one running Linux, and I
don't know how to do anything.
+1 - and I even owned Macs for awhile a long time ago.

I had a guy install TeamViewer on his Mac a couple years ago - figuring
I was going to link into his desktop and install something called
DynUpdater. Think again... I didn't have a prayer...

I'm guessing it's only about a dozen conventions that one has to learn,
but without them it's no-go.
 
K

Ken Springer

Changing from one brand to another is more or less difficult depending
on what kind of a thing those brands are. I've been in all the
following situations:

Put me in the driver's seat of almost any car, even one I've never
seen before, and I can drive it with no problems at all. Put me in
front of almost any television set, even one I've never seen before,
and I can turn it on, change channels, and adjust the volume.

But put me in front of an Apple computer or one running Linux, and I
don't know how to do anything.
For me, the hardest thing about the Mac has been the terminology. It
must have taken me 2 weeks to realize that Airport=wireless!!!!!! LOL
On the flip side of that coin, I've a friend who could never make
heads or tails of Windows, but OS X has never been a problem.

There really isn't that much difference in the basics between OS X and
Win ????? these days. Those folks like Pete, who owned Macs a long time
ago need to forget much of what they learned. Things are more similar
today.

Such as the mouse. While Apple's mouse looks like the old one button
mouse of System X and early OS X systems, it's actually a 4 button
mouse. Although I've not tested it, I suspect an basic 4 button Windows
mouse will work, but you won't have access to extended features built
into the Apple Mouse. I actually am using an MS Wireless Mouse 5000 on
this Mac, which does give me access to those features. Why the MS
Mouse? Fits my hand better! LOL

But the point and click stuff? Most of it's the same. It just looks a
bit different.

Linux, OTOH, is a different story. There, it makes a huge difference,
IMO, in which version of Linux you try. You can get a Linux "distro"
that looks like XP, or OS X, or some other flavor. I hear the current
Ubuntu has the same design idea as Windows 8. Not what I want, but
Linux does offer you choices of a desktop look, which is more than you
can say for Windows and Apple.

FWIW, I find pluses and minuses in all of them. Except possibly Win 8.
LOL

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 22.0
Thunderbird 17.0.7
LibreOffice 4.0.4.2
 
X

XS11E

Mike Barnes said:
Ken Springer <[email protected]>:

Isn't the answer obvious? When you change your car, even to a
different brand, you don't need significant re-education or to buy
new software.
Actually, you DO need significant re-education but most people don't
bother, they just go out in traffic and kill other people because they
can't operate their new car properly.

Fortunately, unfamiliarity with Win8's UI probably won't cause any
property damage, injuries or deaths.
 
X

XS11E

Ken Blake said:
Put me in the driver's seat of almost any car, even one I've never
seen before, and I can drive it with no problems at all.
I'll have to disagree with that, I've had problems with unfamiliar cars
that have caused me to stop by the roadside and RTFM. One rental is a
good example, I had directions that told me to go exactly 3.2 miles and
7.6 miles, etc. I could not figure out how to reset the trip odometer,
the knob sticking out of the speedometer didn't seem to do it......

RTFM, as usual, cleared it right up but it was NOT intuitive.

Similar problems exist with heat/ac controls, radio controls, seat
adjustments, cruise controls, etc. etc. all of which can distract
driver who don't check out a car before driving it.
 
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K

Ken Blake

I'll have to disagree with that, I've had problems with unfamiliar cars
that have caused me to stop by the roadside and RTFM. One rental is a
good example, I had directions that told me to go exactly 3.2 miles and
7.6 miles, etc. I could not figure out how to reset the trip odometer,
the knob sticking out of the speedometer didn't seem to do it......

Yes, I've had an occasional minor issue like that with rental cars
too. But my point wasn't that we know *everything* about an unfamiliar
car, but that we know enough to drive it....

....as compared to a Linux or Macintosh computer, where I don't know
enough to do anything with it.
 
K

Ken Springer

Yes, I've had an occasional minor issue like that with rental cars
too. But my point wasn't that we know *everything* about an unfamiliar
car, but that we know enough to drive it....

...as compared to a Linux or Macintosh computer, where I don't know
enough to do anything with it.
Just to have some fun, wasn't there a time when this comment would have
applied when you first saw Windows? <BG>


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 22.0
Thunderbird 17.0.7
LibreOffice 4.0.4.2
 
X

XS11E

Ken Blake said:
Yes, I've had an occasional minor issue like that with rental cars
too. But my point wasn't that we know *everything* about an
unfamiliar car, but that we know enough to drive it....

...as compared to a Linux or Macintosh computer, where I don't
know enough to do anything with it.
Disagreeing some more, I've looked at Macintosh computers in the store
and been able to operate them a little. I agree they're very
unfamiliar but I can work a Mac or a Linux PC about as well as I can
work Win8, even with Classic Shell. Everything is a struggle to find
out how to do this, where to find that.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

I'll have to disagree with that, I've had problems with unfamiliar cars
that have caused me to stop by the roadside and RTFM. One rental is a
good example, I had directions that told me to go exactly 3.2 miles and
7.6 miles, etc. I could not figure out how to reset the trip odometer,
the knob sticking out of the speedometer didn't seem to do it......

RTFM, as usual, cleared it right up but it was NOT intuitive.

Similar problems exist with heat/ac controls, radio controls, seat
adjustments, cruise controls, etc. etc. all of which can distract
driver who don't check out a car before driving it.
My favorite was riding with a friend of the family we were both
visiting, in her rental car. I asked her why she was always in second
gear, i.e., high RPM at highway speeds, even though the transmission was
automatic. She didn't know & I couldn't figure it out.

Luckily the manual was in the glove compartment. I found out that the
gearshift had a manual mode engaged by moving it to one side.

That to me is intuitive in much the same manner as Macs are :)
 
K

Ken Springer

Disagreeing some more, I've looked at Macintosh computers in the store
and been able to operate them a little. I agree they're very
unfamiliar but I can work a Mac or a Linux PC about as well as I can
work Win8, even with Classic Shell. Everything is a struggle to find
out how to do this, where to find that.
I don't think it's a case where one OS is "just harder to understand"
than any other, I think it's more the type of "thinker" you are.

In general terms...

If you tend to be a logical thinker, such as a scientist, mathematician,
etc., I think you'll find the Windows 7 and earlier Windows interfaces
easier to pick up, including the nomenclature.

If you tend to be a creative thinker, such as a musician, teacher,
artist, I think you'll find the Mac interface easier. I reference the
friend I mentioned in an earlier post here.

As for Linux, from the little I've played with it, the interfaces are
all over the place. They can look like Windows, OS X, or something that
totally incomprehensible to me! LOL

The Win 8 Metro UI, or whatever they are calling it now, is something
that doesn't seem to fit anywhere unless you have tablet/smartphone
experience. I'd bet the first users of those interfaces had the same
frustrations. I've seen some of these and am probably like you, barely
functional. LOL Apple, at least, while maintaining a separate OS
between the two platforms, are building a lot of the visual components
of the two the same.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 22.0
Thunderbird 17.0.7
LibreOffice 4.0.4.2
 
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K

Ken Blake

Just to have some fun, wasn't there a time when this comment would have
applied when you first saw Windows? <BG>

Yes, I suppose so, but not as much as you think. My first version of
Windows was 2.0, and there wasn't very much to get used to.

But it certainly would have applied when I first saw DOS. That was
version 3.0.
 
K

Ken Blake

Disagreeing some more, I've looked at Macintosh computers in the store
and been able to operate them a little. I agree they're very
unfamiliar but I can work a Mac or a Linux PC about as well as I can
work Win8, even with Classic Shell. Everything is a struggle to find
out how to do this, where to find that.

I have no experience with Linux, so I can't really comment. I have
next to no experience with a Macintosh, but once (about ten years
ago) I tried to help someone with a problem, and couldn't do anything
with the machine.

And Windows 8? It took me a week or so to get used to the Modern
interface, but getting used to the Desktop Interface with Start8 took
me no time at all. As I've said here more than once, as far as I'm
concerned, with Start8 it's *very* similar to Windows 7.
 
K

Ken Springer

I have no experience with Linux, so I can't really comment. I have
next to no experience with a Macintosh, but once (about ten years
ago) I tried to help someone with a problem, and couldn't do anything
with the machine.
I think it would be a mistake to judge today's Macs with what you saw 10
years ago. Sort of like comparing XP to 8.

Apple's just officially announced the next version of OS X, called
Mavericks. I'm running the current version, Mountain Lion. I started
with Leopard. Based on what little I've learned of Mavericks, I've yet
to see a feature that I don't already have using 3rd party software.
But without many more details, I simply don't know what I will do.
And Windows 8? It took me a week or so to get used to the Modern
interface, but getting used to the Desktop Interface with Start8 took
me no time at all. As I've said here more than once, as far as I'm
concerned, with Start8 it's *very* similar to Windows 7.
I've seen screenshots of Start8, but I'm not a big fan of Win 7's Start
Menu. So I'm looking to replace the Win 7 Start Menu also. I posted a
link for what I'm looking in an earlier post. As for Win 8, Pokki sure
intrigues me. Based solely on screenshots, it looks like it's created a
Metro UI in a much smaller space, therefore more useful in a desktop
environment with no touchscreen.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.4
Firefox 22.0
Thunderbird 17.0.7
LibreOffice 4.0.4.2
 
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S

Steve Hayes

But put me in front of an Apple computer or one running Linux, and I
don't know how to do anything.
I have Linux on my computer, and boot into it about once a month, when I feel
like playing with it.

I have few problems in making it work, but I do have problems in doing work
with it -- that most of the programs I do work with won't run under it (nor
will many of them run under 64-bit versions of Windows). Yes, I've heard of
Wine, but I'm saving that for when I'm really desperate, and Windows stops
doing anything I want to do altogether.
 

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