Can two cable modems be "shotgunned?"


R

Registered User

Will Win7 work with 2 cable modems simultaneously? In our house, we
have two cable modems & two accounts, one for office and one for home.

My motherboard has two active functioning Ethernet cards.

Will Win7 work with both simultaneously to achieve "double download
speed?" I remember back in the days of dial-up, if people had two
phone lines and two modems they could "shotgun" their connection to
double speed.

Any ideas?

TY!
 
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B

Bob I

Will Win7 work with 2 cable modems simultaneously? In our house, we
have two cable modems& two accounts, one for office and one for home.

My motherboard has two active functioning Ethernet cards.

Will Win7 work with both simultaneously to achieve "double download
speed?" I remember back in the days of dial-up, if people had two
phone lines and two modems they could "shotgun" their connection to
double speed.
"Shotgunning" was a feature of one modem manufacturer. As to Ethernet
you could connect to two different sites for more capacity, but you
couldn't down load the same file in half the time.
 
E

Ed Cryer

"Shotgunning" was a feature of one modem manufacturer. As to Ethernet
you could connect to two different sites for more capacity, but you
couldn't down load the same file in half the time.
He has a point.
Consider dual CPUs and how they interact; and then think of bit-torrent
downloads. What the OP's suggesting is certainly feasible, but as to
whether or not there's available software to do it, well, I don't know.

Ed
 
R

Registered User

"Shotgunning" was a feature of one modem manufacturer. As to Ethernet
you could connect to two different sites for more capacity, but you
couldn't down load the same file in half the time.

It wasn't for only one modem manufacturer, as my old dial-up provider
(early to mid '90s) supported this with any two modems. I don't
believe they even had to be the same speed.

And yes, a 1 MB file could be downloaded at the crazy-fast rate in
about 3-4 minutes!
 
R

Registered User

He has a point.
Consider dual CPUs and how they interact; and then think of bit-torrent
downloads. What the OP's suggesting is certainly feasible, but as to
whether or not there's available software to do it, well, I don't know.

Ed
After thinking about this, it was a special set-up my old dial-up
provider supported. Users got almost double-speed downloads of single
files. His shotgun 'net software must have been sending the file(s)
out in a sharing scheme.

So a related question:

As it is now, one modem handles 99.5% of the traffic(for example 100s
of megs), the other just a few megs.

Is there any way to get one modem/connection to download one large
file or any other 'Net downloads, while the other modem is used for
other download apps?
 
E

Ed Cryer

After thinking about this, it was a special set-up my old dial-up
provider supported. Users got almost double-speed downloads of single
files. His shotgun 'net software must have been sending the file(s)
out in a sharing scheme.

So a related question:

As it is now, one modem handles 99.5% of the traffic(for example 100s
of megs), the other just a few megs.

Is there any way to get one modem/connection to download one large
file or any other 'Net downloads, while the other modem is used for
other download apps?
Do the two sit happily together on one DSL line?
Can you switch between the two in Win7?

If these two points work ok then I'd think your idea would work too. In
fact, if I understand correctly what you've said about the "99.5% and
the other few megs" above, then it is already working to some extent.
And now it's just a matter of adjusting the work-load parameters.

Ed
 
R

Registered User

Do the two sit happily together on one DSL line?
Can you switch between the two in Win7?

If these two points work ok then I'd think your idea would work too. In
fact, if I understand correctly what you've said about the "99.5% and
the other few megs" above, then it is already working to some extent.
And now it's just a matter of adjusting the work-load parameters.

Ed

Yes, they're both sending and recieving data. The question is how to
get both modems to work at full capacity at the same time.

I'll settle for it being two separate apps, istead of one "double
speed."

Thanks
 
E

Ed Cryer

Yes, they're both sending and recieving data. The question is how to
get both modems to work at full capacity at the same time.

I'll settle for it being two separate apps, istead of one "double
speed."

Thanks

How do you currently control them?

Ed
 
P

Paul

Ed said:
He has a point.
Consider dual CPUs and how they interact; and then think of bit-torrent
downloads. What the OP's suggesting is certainly feasible, but as to
whether or not there's available software to do it, well, I don't know.

Ed
Some of the terminology can be found on this page.

http://smallvoid.com/article/winnt-network-load.html

BitTorrent may be able to take advantage of what is described in the
first part of that article. If a torrent uses multiple connections,
when each connection is set up, it may be possible to randomize the
connections over the two interfaces. For the BitTorrent protocol,
this could result in a higher transfer rate.

It would be harder to get a protocol like FTP, to work with that,
because when the (single) connection is set up, it'll all be going
over one interface. So granularity is an issue with some of
these schemes, and BitTorrent has the solution for that. (Yes, there
are FTP methods that open multiple connections, so I suppose you might
argue that FTP isn't totally out of the question. You could be downloading
a different file on each link, as a trivial example.)

They also mention "Teaming", but teaming seems to involve two
cables running to the same piece of networking equipment. So
I'm not sure that would do the same kind of thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_aggregation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_bonding

"Multiple dial-up links over POTS can be channel-bonded together
in the same manner and can come closer to achieving their
aggregate bandwidth than routing schemes which simply load-balance
outgoing network connections over the links."

On ADSL, there is actually an option at the terminating equipment called
MLPPP. My ISP offers this, for $4 per month over base ADSL pricing.
And some user on one of the web forums, has actually tested bonding
together seven ADSL connections (they all have to terminate at the
same ISP, and the same terminating equipment). So seven links was
the maximum the equipment at the other end would support. Apparently
MLPPP can even be run, as a protocol, on one link, with the intent
being, to prevent other "filtering" equipment, from throttling
certain protocols a customer might use. So the option is even useful
on one link (until the filtering equipment has been updated to
consider this situation). I don't know if Cable/DOCSIS has
an option like that or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLPPP#PPP_Configuration_Options

You can also find forums which discuss stuff like this.

http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/r25899747-Cable-vs.-2-Link-MLPPP-Comparison

Two cable modems, could end up connected to the same segment of
shared cable. At least, the original implementation of a cable
setup, would look like this.

Head End ------- coax_down_your_street ----+---------+---------+
| | |
cable cable cab;e
modem modem modem

Now, depending on the subscription level, or speeds involved, a city
street could be chopped up into shorter cable segments. But it wouldn't
be as likely, that one household would have physical access to two
separate cable segments. What I'm trying to get at there, is there is
the possibility of resource contention, so "bonding" the devices
isn't necessarily a win. For example, during the busy hour, if you
see your bandwidth plummet, bonding might double the bandwidth for you,
but the doubling might not even reach the level of what a single link
could achieve during the non-busy times. So if the intention was to
achieve a "guaranteed minimum bandwidth", even two cable modems
might not be enough, if the cable segment is over-subscribed.
You might see 20Mbit/sec on each link during the quiet hour,
and 3Mbit/sec during the busy hour, and 2*3Mbit/sec still isn't
a lot (compared to the 20Mbit/sec during the good times). If you
were having trouble watching IPTV on a single cable connection,
then if the segment is congested, perhaps two bonded together
wouldn't be enough. For a protocol like BitTorrent, you wouldn't
care about that, because it's the average rate that counts (over
a longer period of time).

All Internet networking options, work on the premise of concentration
and over-subscription. That takes advantage of the customers that
are "quiet" most of the time, to stretch the equipment further.
Even modem pools in dialup days did that - you could easily subscribe
to dialup, go to use it, and get a busy signal. Over-subscription
in broadband, leads to peak bandwidth reduction during the busy hour, so
at least some service is still available.

I never notice a reduction in my ADSL service, but then, it's so slow
compared to cable, who cares... :-( My download rate is a steady 300KB/sec.
Big deal. Seven times that, can easily be beaten by some of the newer
cable or FIOS offerings.

For cable, DOCSIS 3 is the latest popular standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS

"DOCSIS 3.0 features channel bonding, which enables multiple downstream
and upstream channels to be used together at the same time by a single
subscriber.

Common DOCSIS 3.0 speeds are listed in the table below.

downstream upstream Downstream Upstream
channels channels throughput throughput
8 4 343.04 Mbit/s 122.88 Mbit/s "

So if a provider had a monthly offering of that nature, even a single
modem connection could give hefty performance. And that is bonding
of channels available on the shared cable. It might not be necessary
to bond at the cable modem level, if channel bonding can give the
desired result. I suppose the difference might be, if you had two
different cable segments, but that isn't likely to happen.

Paul
 
F

Flint

Will Win7 work with 2 cable modems simultaneously? In our house, we
have two cable modems& two accounts, one for office and one for home.

My motherboard has two active functioning Ethernet cards.

Will Win7 work with both simultaneously to achieve "double download
speed?" I remember back in the days of dial-up, if people had two
phone lines and two modems they could "shotgun" their connection to
double speed.

Any ideas?

TY!
Theoretically, you could come up with a means to shotgun two cable
modems, but I fail to see the point of doing so if both modems are
actively connected to the same cable segment. If you need more
bandwidth than what one modem currently provides, talk to your local
cableco about an upgraded bandwidth account - much simpler, and less
expensive than paying for two cable modem accounts which still have to
reside on/share bandwith on the samew cable segment.
 
E

Ed Cryer

Paul,

Thanks... but way over my haid...

Anyway, speed is not the issue or I'd just up my service level.

We have two cable modems here, which, like, most, are used way under
capacity. So... If brother-in-law's modem is not being used, I'd like
to plug his connection into my main desktop for movie and newsgroup
downloads at much higher spees than I get now.

I get the idea it may not be possible.

Thjank you again for the great reply!
The problem with the set-up you've got is that it's all coming down one
DSL line.
The two limiting factors with bb speed are 1; ISP delivery speed, and 2;
line max speed.
The modem is very seldom the limiting factor; most are capable of
handling far more than what's actually coming down the line.

Most people would not benefit one iota from having two modems, let alone
two separate accounts. I suspect that the only reason you get any usage
at all logged against the second modem is the account has to be checked
now and again.

I'd ditch the second account and remove the modem. They're doing more
harm than good, apparently.

Ed
 
C

charlie

Theoretically, you could come up with a means to shotgun two cable
modems, but I fail to see the point of doing so if both modems are
actively connected to the same cable segment. If you need more bandwidth
than what one modem currently provides, talk to your local cableco about
an upgraded bandwidth account - much simpler, and less expensive than
paying for two cable modem accounts which still have to reside on/share
bandwith on the samew cable segment.
The local cable provider has this thing about one private home address,
one modem. (Unless you have phone service, and they provide the modem.)
When this happens, the provided modem is a DOCSYS 2 modem, and you may
have to fight to keep an existing DOCSYS 3 modem "provisioned".

We used to do something similar at work, using two cable modems and
routers, along with a server.
The servers saw the routers, the users saw the servers.
(Unix & Win NT Servers were in use)
 
S

Seth

Registered User said:
Will Win7 work with 2 cable modems simultaneously? In our house, we
have two cable modems & two accounts, one for office and one for home.

My motherboard has two active functioning Ethernet cards.

Will Win7 work with both simultaneously to achieve "double download
speed?" I remember back in the days of dial-up, if people had two
phone lines and two modems they could "shotgun" their connection to
double speed.
Use a Cisco\Linksys RV042 router. It can use 2 WAN connections for either
load balancing or fail-over.
 
C

Charles Tomaras

Registered User said:
Will Win7 work with 2 cable modems simultaneously? In our house, we
have two cable modems & two accounts, one for office and one for home.

My motherboard has two active functioning Ethernet cards.

Will Win7 work with both simultaneously to achieve "double download
speed?" I remember back in the days of dial-up, if people had two
phone lines and two modems they could "shotgun" their connection to
double speed.

Any ideas?
While some manufacturer might have used the term Shotgunned at some point,
the actual term is "bonding."

Here's a search link with lots of information about bonding cable modems. I
haven't looked too deeply but there lots of stuff to look at here:
http://www.bing.com/search?q=bonding+cable+modems&form=OSDSRC
 
G

G. Morgan

Registered said:
Will Win7 work with 2 cable modems simultaneously? In our house, we
have two cable modems & two accounts, one for office and one for home.

My motherboard has two active functioning Ethernet cards.

Will Win7 work with both simultaneously to achieve "double download
speed?" I remember back in the days of dial-up, if people had two
phone lines and two modems they could "shotgun" their connection to
double speed.

Any ideas?
I don't know where you got the term 'shotgunning', but the correct term
is 'multi-homing'.

It won't reduce the time it takes to download a file.

Now that you have the correct term for it, you can research why high-end
routers have that capability. It's mostly used by ISP's so they have 2
separate 'routes' in case one is down (cut fiber is too common). They
choose their bandwidth providers based on the two using different
backbones, to greatly reduce the possibility of a complete outage.
 
G

G. Morgan

Registered said:
I get the idea it may not be possible.
It is easily possible. You have two choices.

1. Buy a router with built-in muti-homing

2. Setup that pc with 2 NIC's as a gateway/router/load balancer (you'll
need one more NIC). It's best to dedicate a machine for that purpose
alone. If you have an old PC to dedicate for that purpose many Linux
distos will run just fine for use in that capacity.

See here for s/w vendors:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_balancing_(computing)>

Search google for "router with multiple wan ports"

This can be had for about $160:
Cisco Systems Cisco Small Business RV042 Dual WAN VPN Router

Ebay probably has a used one cheaper. But I would not recommend a used
router, you want one with a warranty.
 
F

Flint

The local cable provider has this thing about one private home
address, one modem. (Unless you have phone service, and they provide
the modem.)
When this happens, the provided modem is a DOCSYS 2 modem, and you may
have to fight to keep an existing DOCSYS 3 modem "provisioned".

We used to do something similar at work, using two cable modems and
routers, along with a server.
The servers saw the routers, the users saw the servers.
(Unix & Win NT Servers were in use)
My local cableco has a similar policy. I suspect it has to do with
bandwidth load leveling per cable segment - they don't want a bunch of
folks ordering multiple cable modems and quickly saturating available
bandwidth. For those that really need the additional bandwidth, they
generally are encouraged to move up to a 'commercial account'. It
isn't too difficult to get a commercial account, even residential
areas or at a residential address however, as my local cableco is
aware of the reality of home business owners and their needs, although
it surprises me that many local cable operators are still in the 90's
regarding their policies, and stubbornly refuse to upgrade their cable
plants until absolutely necessary.
 
G

G. Morgan

charlie said:
The local cable provider has this thing about one private home address,
one modem. (Unless you have phone service, and they provide the modem.)
When this happens, the provided modem is a DOCSYS 2 modem, and you may
have to fight to keep an existing DOCSYS 3 modem "provisioned".

We used to do something similar at work, using two cable modems and
routers, along with a server.
The servers saw the routers, the users saw the servers.
(Unix & Win NT Servers were in use)
The whole point is to have a backup route if one goes down, in addition
to increasing bandwidth for the network. Why would the company use the
same provider for both WAN connections?
 
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D

DanS

Will Win7 work with 2 cable modems simultaneously? In our
house, we have two cable modems & two accounts, one for
office and one for home.

My motherboard has two active functioning Ethernet cards.

Will Win7 work with both simultaneously to achieve "double
download speed?" I remember back in the days of dial-up, if
people had two phone lines and two modems they could
"shotgun" their connection to double speed.

Any ideas?

TY!
"Load balancing" is the correct term you are looking for as
someone else pointed out.

But, depending on how you want the traffic split up, there's a
possibility it could be done just with setting up some routing.

You say your PC has 2 NICs. Does each cable modem connect
to/through a router? They should. A PC should never be connected
directly to a cable modem.

This most likely can't be done just through routing if the
traffic is always random web-based.

However, let's say for instance, you do day-trading and always
run some s/w package and are connected to their servers 24/7 to
get stock updates and such. Since this is using the same server
all the time, you can easily set up a route so the connection is
made through the cable modem of your choice.

You would set the default gateway of a PC to use one modem for
constantly dynamic connections, like web browsing, and then set
routes for any static servers to use the other modem.

That's the only way you can do it w/o having to either use
another server w/load balancing, or use a rtr that has 2 WAN
connections and does it's own load-balancing.

I think I recall it the thread somewhere someone gave you a
model number for a rtr that does load balancing on two WAN
ports.
 

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