Windows should increment file names


M

Metspitzer

Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?
 
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C

Char Jackson

Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?
I'm more inclined to ask, why are you letting Windows name your files?
 
V

VanguardLH

Metspitzer said:
Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?
Windows does not pick names for documents. Your APPLICATION does that
but you never mentioned the application you are using.

When you load your unidentified application to create a document, it's
not likely it will consume gobs of memory in preparation for your work
on the document since it won't know the size of the document. Your
application is going to create a [sometimes temporary] file which can be
expanded as needed as you add more to the document.

So what *application* are you using to create a new document?
 
M

Metspitzer

I'm more inclined to ask, why are you letting Windows name your files?
Because they are only temporary. I do name the permanent ones.
 
M

Metspitzer

Metspitzer said:
Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?
Windows does not pick names for documents. Your APPLICATION does that
but you never mentioned the application you are using.

When you load your unidentified application to create a document, it's
not likely it will consume gobs of memory in preparation for your work
on the document since it won't know the size of the document. Your
application is going to create a [sometimes temporary] file which can be
expanded as needed as you add more to the document.

So what *application* are you using to create a new document?
Note pad
Word pad
Paint

Those are a few
 
C

Char Jackson

Metspitzer said:
Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?
Windows does not pick names for documents. Your APPLICATION does that
but you never mentioned the application you are using.

When you load your unidentified application to create a document, it's
not likely it will consume gobs of memory in preparation for your work
on the document since it won't know the size of the document. Your
application is going to create a [sometimes temporary] file which can be
expanded as needed as you add more to the document.

So what *application* are you using to create a new document?
That middle paragraph is oddly out of place. Does the size of a
document play a role in how its default name is generated?
 
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J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?
Windows does not pick names for documents. Your APPLICATION does that
but you never mentioned the application you are using.

When you load your unidentified application to create a document, it's
not likely it will consume gobs of memory in preparation for your work
on the document since it won't know the size of the document. Your
application is going to create a [sometimes temporary] file which can be
expanded as needed as you add more to the document.

So what *application* are you using to create a new document?[/QUOTE]

_Some_ applications _do_ number. Windows itself (if you really insist,
Windows Explorer) does (XP, anyway) for _folders_ - it creates "New
Folder", "New Folder (2)", etcetera. (Come to think of it, Excel does
similar when you copy a sheet within a workbook). [Why it/they start at
"(2)"* I don't know.]

* Typing "(2)" - with the quotes and brackets - slows one down on a UK
keyboard!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)[email protected]+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I can live with doubt, and uncertainty, and not knowing. I think it's much
more *interesting* to live not knowing than to have answers which might be
wrong. - Richard Feynman, in 1981 Horizon interview
 
V

VanguardLH

Char said:
VanguardLH said:
Metspitzer said:
Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?
Windows does not pick names for documents. Your APPLICATION does
that but you never mentioned the application you are using.

When you load your unidentified application to create a document,
it's not likely it will consume gobs of memory in preparation for
your work on the document since it won't know the size of the
document. Your application is going to create a [sometimes
temporary] file which can be expanded as needed as you add more to
the document.

So what *application* are you using to create a new document?
That middle paragraph is oddly out of place. Does the size of a
document play a role in how its default name is generated?
What I meant is Windows isn't going to allocate all of available memory
for a file space since it won't know how big will be the file. It will
load the application into memory (a portion of it) and the application
might allocate a buffer in which it loads a portion of the file.
Whether temporary or the target file, the app is going to create a file
for the new document, not Windows.
 
V

VanguardLH

Metspitzer said:
VanguardLH said:
Metspitzer said:
Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?
Windows does not pick names for documents. Your APPLICATION does
that but you never mentioned the application you are using.

When you load your unidentified application to create a document,
it's not likely it will consume gobs of memory in preparation for
your work on the document since it won't know the size of the
document. Your application is going to create a [sometimes
temporary] file which can be expanded as needed as you add more to
the document.

So what *application* are you using to create a new document?
Note pad
Word pad
Paint
When you open those programs, they don't create a temporary file. What
you put into the empty doc is in a buffer. You can see this by using
Nirsoft's OpenFilesViewer to see what processes have opened a file
handle. When you load Notepad, Wordpad, or Paint (without specifying a
file so you end up with a new doc when they load), they don't open a
file which assigns a handle to that object. Not until you choose to
Save [As] for that document do filenames come into play.

Some applications may create a temporary file and it's up to them to
create differently named temp files if multiple new docs are opened in
that same application and it's not using a buffer.
Those are a few
If the application is loaded without specifying a file to open, why
would there be any filename conflict when you go to save the document?
When you load the application without specifying a file, you get a blank
(untitled) document in the application. Then when you go to save your
changes, YOU will have to specify a filename. The document is untitled.
It doesn't yet have a filename associated with it. YOU had to give it a
name.

When saving the unassociated buffer into a file and after YOU specify
the filename (since it didn't have one yet), and if you specify a
filename for an already existing file, you get prompted that the file
already exists. You can choose to cancel (to pick a different path and
filename) or to overwrite the existing file. If the file already exists
and after getting the prompt that it already exists when you try to save
into the same path and filename, and if you don't want to overwrite,
then cancel and pick a different filename; for example, append "1" to
the filename that you wanted.

You open Notepad, Wordpad, or Paint. You didn't specify a filename so
the app creates a new empty doc. There is no filename conflict because
the new doc doesn't have a filename associated with it yet. Then when
you go to save the new document is when YOU are asked to specify a
filename. It's up to you what filename you give the new doc.

Maybe what you're asking is why an incremental number isn't appended
when you choose to Save As a document. Well, the app prompts YOU for
the target filename. If there's a conflict with an existing file then
YOU specify a different filename. Save [As] is not a file versioning
feature to keep appending numbers onto filenames as you repeatedly save
updated copies of a document. It uses whatever filename you specify.

Where was Windows involved in picking the filenames for Save [As] on a
new or old document?
 
M

Metspitzer

Metspitzer said:
VanguardLH said:
Metspitzer wrote:

Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?

Windows does not pick names for documents. Your APPLICATION does
that but you never mentioned the application you are using.

When you load your unidentified application to create a document,
it's not likely it will consume gobs of memory in preparation for
your work on the document since it won't know the size of the
document. Your application is going to create a [sometimes
temporary] file which can be expanded as needed as you add more to
the document.

So what *application* are you using to create a new document?
Note pad
Word pad
Paint
When you open those programs, they don't create a temporary file. What
you put into the empty doc is in a buffer. You can see this by using
Nirsoft's OpenFilesViewer to see what processes have opened a file
handle. When you load Notepad, Wordpad, or Paint (without specifying a
file so you end up with a new doc when they load), they don't open a
file which assigns a handle to that object. Not until you choose to
Save [As] for that document do filenames come into play.

Some applications may create a temporary file and it's up to them to
create differently named temp files if multiple new docs are opened in
that same application and it's not using a buffer.
Those are a few
If the application is loaded without specifying a file to open, why
would there be any filename conflict when you go to save the document?
When you load the application without specifying a file, you get a blank
(untitled) document in the application. Then when you go to save your
changes, YOU will have to specify a filename. The document is untitled.
It doesn't yet have a filename associated with it. YOU had to give it a
name.

When saving the unassociated buffer into a file and after YOU specify
the filename (since it didn't have one yet), and if you specify a
filename for an already existing file, you get prompted that the file
already exists. You can choose to cancel (to pick a different path and
filename) or to overwrite the existing file. If the file already exists
and after getting the prompt that it already exists when you try to save
into the same path and filename, and if you don't want to overwrite,
then cancel and pick a different filename; for example, append "1" to
the filename that you wanted.

You open Notepad, Wordpad, or Paint. You didn't specify a filename so
the app creates a new empty doc. There is no filename conflict because
the new doc doesn't have a filename associated with it yet. Then when
you go to save the new document is when YOU are asked to specify a
filename. It's up to you what filename you give the new doc.

Maybe what you're asking is why an incremental number isn't appended
when you choose to Save As a document. Well, the app prompts YOU for
the target filename. If there's a conflict with an existing file then
YOU specify a different filename. Save [As] is not a file versioning
feature to keep appending numbers onto filenames as you repeatedly save
updated copies of a document. It uses whatever filename you specify.

Where was Windows involved in picking the filenames for Save [As] on a
new or old document?
Windows does furnish a filename if you have made a document from
scratch using Wordpad, for example. I sometimes open wordpad and jot
down a note or two. This happened yesterday when I was trying to
contact customer support. I only needed to jot down the support
number and the person's name that took the call.

What I do is, when I am finished making notes, just click to close the
window. Windows asks for a filename. It defaults to Document.rtf so
I just save the file as Document.rtf. If I have another occasion to
take a note or two I repeat the process. This time when I save it
Windows defaults to Document.rtf again. I get an error that the
filename already exists. I can rename it or replace it. It should
automatically pick Document(2).rtf
 
R

R. C. White

Hi, Metspitzer.

To add to Vanguard's excellent answer...

Too many newbies simply press <Enter> and accept the default filename - and
PATH - that the app has suggested, without even looking to see what the
proposed path\name is. Then they cry, "I can't find my file anywhere!
Where did Windows put it?"

The answer, of course, is that Windows - and the app - put the file where
the USER told it to put the file. By pressing <Enter> without specifying a
new path\name, the USER accepted the defaults.

The default behavior depends on the app and how its developer wrote the
program. Many apps let the USER specify a default location for all files
from that program; many music and photo apps are written this way. They
generally provide a fallback location in case the USER doesn't specify a
different one - such as \My Pictures - but the USER always has the option to
specify a different location. Once the user chooses a path, most apps make
that path the new default - until the USER changes it by specifying a new
location. (Often we can find a "lost" file by simply telling the same app
to Save the same file again, but this time we watch closely to see WHERE the
app proposes to save the file; we can then interrupt the Save and browse to
that location and find our originally-saved file. But we need to act fast,
before we save a later file to some other location.)

Windows Explorer does play tricks on us sometimes when we are trying to save
a file. If we Browse to the correct folder, but then let our mouse hover
over a filename there, Explorer sometimes proposes THAT filename as the name
of the file to be saved! :>( Unless we are paying attention, we can accept
that name and lose track of TWO files: our new one and the old one that is
now overwritten.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2011 (Build 15.4.3555.0308) in Win7 Ultimate x64 SP1


"Metspitzer" wrote in message

Metspitzer said:
Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?
Windows does not pick names for documents. Your APPLICATION does that
but you never mentioned the application you are using.

When you load your unidentified application to create a document, it's
not likely it will consume gobs of memory in preparation for your work
on the document since it won't know the size of the document. Your
application is going to create a [sometimes temporary] file which can be
expanded as needed as you add more to the document.

So what *application* are you using to create a new document?
Note pad
Word pad
Paint

Those are a few
 
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M

Metspitzer

I can live with doubt, and uncertainty, and not knowing. I think it's much
more *interesting* to live not knowing than to have answers which might be
wrong. - Richard Feynman, in 1981 Horizon interview
The most interesting part, to me, was when General Donald Kutyna
steered Feynman like a lab rat into "discovering" that the O rings on
the Space Shuttle were the cause of the disaster.
Starting at 1:15
 
C

Char Jackson

Windows Explorer does play tricks on us sometimes when we are trying to save
a file. If we Browse to the correct folder, but then let our mouse hover
over a filename there, Explorer sometimes proposes THAT filename as the name
of the file to be saved! :>( Unless we are paying attention, we can accept
that name and lose track of TWO files: our new one and the old one that is
now overwritten.
I don't think that's true. Can you provide steps to reproduce this
issue? They key will be to simply hover over an unrelated file rather
than actually clicking it.
 
C

Char Jackson

Char said:
VanguardLH said:
Metspitzer wrote:

Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?

Windows does not pick names for documents. Your APPLICATION does
that but you never mentioned the application you are using.

When you load your unidentified application to create a document,
it's not likely it will consume gobs of memory in preparation for
your work on the document since it won't know the size of the
document. Your application is going to create a [sometimes
temporary] file which can be expanded as needed as you add more to
the document.

So what *application* are you using to create a new document?
That middle paragraph is oddly out of place. Does the size of a
document play a role in how its default name is generated?
What I meant is Windows isn't going to allocate all of available memory
for a file space since it won't know how big will be the file. It will
load the application into memory (a portion of it) and the application
might allocate a buffer in which it loads a portion of the file.
Whether temporary or the target file, the app is going to create a file
for the new document, not Windows.
Fair enough, but still 100% unrelated to the OP's question about
default filenames.
 
G

Gene Wirchenko

[snip]
Windows does furnish a filename if you have made a document from
scratch using Wordpad, for example. I sometimes open wordpad and jot
No, it does not. The app does that.
down a note or two. This happened yesterday when I was trying to
contact customer support. I only needed to jot down the support
number and the person's name that took the call.

What I do is, when I am finished making notes, just click to close the
window. Windows asks for a filename. It defaults to Document.rtf so
The app asks for a filename.
I just save the file as Document.rtf. If I have another occasion to
take a note or two I repeat the process. This time when I save it
Windows defaults to Document.rtf again. I get an error that the
The app is the one defaulting.
filename already exists. I can rename it or replace it. It should
automatically pick Document(2).rtf
Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
 
C

Cecil

Windows picks a name for an untitled document. If the untilled
document exists already, why not add a 1 to the filename?
As memory serves me that is what is done if you are downloading a file
but I'm not sure that windows is doing that. Maybe I should investigate
that later.

Top
 
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G

Gene E. Bloch

I don't think that's true. Can you provide steps to reproduce this
issue? They key will be to simply hover over an unrelated file rather
than actually clicking it.
I am not sure (make that "I have no idea") how *I* have done it, but
there has been more than one occasion where the file name or directory
name which I thought I selected, and which is highlighted, is *not* the
one that the application (usually Windows Explorer) thinks is selected.
These days, I try to look closely with my beady eyes before accepting
anything :-(

The last time was two or three days ago, and it was not me but the
person I was watching & "helping" who experienced that.

I think it happened in Windows Live Mail, but I'm not sure my memory is
clear (because of the confusion of that session).
 
C

Char Jackson

I am not sure (make that "I have no idea") how *I* have done it, but
there has been more than one occasion where the file name or directory
name which I thought I selected, and which is highlighted, is *not* the
one that the application (usually Windows Explorer) thinks is selected.
These days, I try to look closely with my beady eyes before accepting
anything :-(

The last time was two or three days ago, and it was not me but the
person I was watching & "helping" who experienced that.

I think it happened in Windows Live Mail, but I'm not sure my memory is
clear (because of the confusion of that session).
I think the scenario that R.C. described is flat wrong. Your scenario,
however, seems possible.

Using the standard Windows theme, when a file is selected it is
highlighted in a shade of blue. When a second file is hovered over, it
becomes a nearly identical shade of blue, only the slightest bit
lighter. It would be very easy to see the hovered file and its
highlight and assume that it's the selected file, especially if the
selected file is scrolled out of view. Further, I've read that
selecting a folder (in the left pane of Windows Explorer) will allow a
file in the right pane that was previously selected to retain its blue
selection attribute. Obviously, you can't select a folder in the left
pane AND a file in the right pane at the same time, so that could be
confusing and could lead to errors (and possible data loss).

Does that sound like what you're seeing?

P.S. Didn't we touch on this same subject during "the great Library
debate" awhile back? You had noticed some file-selection weirdness,
IIRC, and had included it as one of several reasons why you didn't use
Libraries. I could be misremembering, though.
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

Metspitzer said:
The most interesting part, to me, was when General Donald Kutyna
steered Feynman like a lab rat into "discovering" that the O rings on
the Space Shuttle were the cause of the disaster.
Starting at 1:15
So Feynman himself says a few minutes later; however, he's not saying he
disagrees with the conclusion he was led into making.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)[email protected]+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a
profound truth may well be another profound truth. -Niels Bohr, physicist
(1885-1962)
 
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G

Gene E. Bloch

On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 11:18:25 -0700, Gene E. Bloch
I think the scenario that R.C. described is flat wrong. Your scenario,
however, seems possible.
Using the standard Windows theme, when a file is selected it is
highlighted in a shade of blue. When a second file is hovered over, it
becomes a nearly identical shade of blue, only the slightest bit
lighter. It would be very easy to see the hovered file and its
highlight and assume that it's the selected file, especially if the
selected file is scrolled out of view. Further, I've read that
selecting a folder (in the left pane of Windows Explorer) will allow a
file in the right pane that was previously selected to retain its blue
selection attribute. Obviously, you can't select a folder in the left
pane AND a file in the right pane at the same time, so that could be
confusing and could lead to errors (and possible data loss).
Does that sound like what you're seeing?
P.S. Didn't we touch on this same subject during "the great Library
debate" awhile back? You had noticed some file-selection weirdness,
IIRC, and had included it as one of several reasons why you didn't use
Libraries. I could be misremembering, though.
It seems like when I click on a file the other entity remains selected,
in view or not, and this is confusing at best...which is why it sounds
like what I'm seeing, but maybe it isn't quite that...

Yes, we did discuss this (or something similar) with respect to
Libraries, and later I posted that I had seen it (or something similar)
happen outside of any Library context.

For me the upshot of it is that in the heat of battle, my perceptions
may be (and surely *are*) confused, and I haven't yet managed to be in
a situation where I have (or take) a few seconds to try to see what is
actually happening. I.e., I react too quickly and thereby lose the
opportunity to investigate...

So I'll at least try to watch what is happening so I can avoid trouble,
and maybe I'll even get a clear idea of what is happening. But until
then, I'd better avoid sounding definitive.

And now you also have an idea why I inserted the parenthetical "or
something similar" above :)
 

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