Windows 8

[John Williamson]

1. It's been awhile, but I've heard *many* stories of people using
standard CD-R discs, not CD-RW, as if it was a giant floppy.

2. See J.P. Gilliver's post in this thread. His experience seems to
mirror mine.

3. See the Wiki link I posted earlier in the thread, which also says
that standard CD-R's can be used.

So I ask again, are you sure?

From this link, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Disk_Format>

Normally, authoring software will master a UDF file system in a
batch process and write it to optical media in a single pass. But
when packet writing to rewriteable media, such as CD-RW, UDF allows
files to be created, deleted and changed on-disc just as a
general-purpose filesystem would on removable media like floppy
disks and flash drives. This is also possible on write-once media,
such as CD-R, but in that case the space occupied by the deleted
files cannot be reclaimed (and instead becomes inaccessible).

Note the last sentence, where it says this is also possible on
write-once media.

It is, but once you have written a total of whatever the CD capacity is,
the write once media becomes unwritable. For CD-R, this can be a 10 Meg
file changed 60 times, or 10 x 10 meg files changed 6 times each. Each
committed change to a file re-writes it as a new file to the CD, and the
directory entry corresponding to the old version is (IIRC) written over
and destroyed, although some recovery programs are able to recover the
old versions of the data.

On rewritable media, the old data is just erased and re-written with the
new values, with the file allocation data being re-written to match as
it would be on a floppy. This works until the dye fades too much, or the
data in the UDF file index area gets corrupted. DVD-RAM works more like
a very slow hard drive.

 

[Char Jackson]

It is, but once you have written a total of whatever the CD capacity is,
the write once media becomes unwritable. For CD-R, this can be a 10 Meg
file changed 60 times, or 10 x 10 meg files changed 6 times each. Each
committed change to a file re-writes it as a new file to the CD, and the
directory entry corresponding to the old version is (IIRC) written over
and destroyed, although some recovery programs are able to recover the
old versions of the data.

On rewritable media, the old data is just erased and re-written with the
new values, with the file allocation data being re-written to match as
it would be on a floppy. This works until the dye fades too much, or the
data in the UDF file index area gets corrupted. DVD-RAM works more like
a very slow hard drive.

Yes, I know, thanks.

 

[John Williamson]

Yes, I know, thanks.

You know it, I know it, others may not.

 

[Rodney Pont]

So I ask again, are you sure?

I thought I'd better try and.... yes you can. I put a DVD+R in and
selected format. Then copied some files, ejected the DVD and reloaded
it and copied some more.

The reason I knew it wouldn't work is that my neighbour tried some
years ago using In-CD under XP and he couldn't add files and I never
tried myself but assumed it would format the whole disc, which it
doesn't.

So I was absolutely wrong.

 

[SC Tom]

I thought I'd better try and.... yes you can. I put a DVD+R in and
selected format. Then copied some files, ejected the DVD and reloaded
it and copied some more.

The reason I knew it wouldn't work is that my neighbour tried some
years ago using In-CD under XP and he couldn't add files and I never
tried myself but assumed it would format the whole disc, which it
doesn't.

So I was absolutely wrong.

Well, many kudos to you!! It is so rare to see anyone here admit being wrong, it would almost fall under the category of
an anomaly

 

[John Aldred]

OK, windows8 consumer preview is out, what do people think?

Well I'm afraid that with a desktop PC and mouse (no touchscreen), I can't
really try out this shiny new interface.

With a bit of vandalism I can get it to work in a reasonable fashion on my
system, as a Windows 7 lookalike.

I've installed Security Essentials, Thunderbird, Firefox and Open Office,
with their start-up icons on the Desktop. I've also found Media Player and
pinned it to the task bar.

Now for the vandalism - I've uninstalled/unpinned all the Metro items from
the Start menu. This just leaves me with the Desktop tile, and a set of
tiles for the new software that I have installed for the desktop.

I would hope that when Windows 8 is released, Windows 7 is still an option
on new PCs for a few years.

 

[Char Jackson]

I thought I'd better try and.... yes you can. I put a DVD+R in and
selected format. Then copied some files, ejected the DVD and reloaded
it and copied some more.

The reason I knew it wouldn't work is that my neighbour tried some
years ago using In-CD under XP and he couldn't add files and I never
tried myself but assumed it would format the whole disc, which it
doesn't.

Cool beans! Thanks.

 

[Steve Hayes]

You've moved the goalposts and now it sounds like you're asking about
UDF packet writing, or whatever it's called. I've never done it and
have zero interest in doing it. Why not use a hard drive or USB thumb
drive?

No, I haven't moved the goalposts.

You may have zero interest in doing it, but I have a great deal of interest in
doing it. And Windows 7 does it, Windows 98 did it, but XP doesn't seem to do
it.

DVDs are a great deal less expensive for off-site backup of data files than
hard drives etc.

 

[Steve Hayes]

You need to use RW discs for that.

In XP, not in Windows 7.

 

[Steve Hayes]

Can't speak for 7, but under '98 (and I'd be most surprised if it
doesn't also apply to XP, 7, and non-Windows OSs), you can use UDF with
non-erasable discs: they have to be formatted first, but thereafter, you
can use them. When I first looked into it, the advantage (which is
basically that you can use them just like a giant floppy - no messing
about with "sessions", "closing" etc.) seemed to be outweighed by the
considerable loss in capacity (IIRR a UDF-format CD is something like
500M rather than 650 - yes, it was a _long_ time ago I looked into
this!), but that's probably less relevant now.

Obviously, with a non-erasable disc, if you deleted a file, you didn't
get back the space it occupied, unlike with an RW disc.

The point about non-erasable discs is that they are cheap, and one can back up
important datafiles with a batch file. I don't want to reuse the space, I just
want to be able to put the disc in the drive, type "databack" from the command
prompt, and put the disc away, to be used again if my computer crashes or
something.

They are cheap enough that if I want an updated backup, I just make another
one.

 

[Steve Hayes]

Absolutely. You can't format an R and then write files to it, it has to
be an RW. I would expect the system to not even allow you to format an
R but it's not something I've tried.

XP won't let you, but Windows 7 asks whether you want to use it as a WORM disc
(Write One, Read Many).

And Windows 98 used to allow it too, though with a third party-program that
came with my CD Writer.

You can select a load of files and write them to an R and if you make
it multisession and don't finalize it you can write another load to it
later but they are added and don't overwrite anything already there
(I'm not clear on what would happen if you wrote the same file but
altered to it, whether it would blank out the files in the first write
and do them all again).

Yes, but that means the schlep of having to select the load of files each
time. Doing it with a batch file is much simpler.

 

[Steve Hayes]

XP won't let you, but Windows 7 asks whether you want to use it as a WORM disc
(Write One, Read Many).

Actually, I lie.

I used to have an HP laptop, which was nicked, which could write on CD-R
discs. It called that option DLA - Drive Letter Access.

But it could only read DVDs, not write to them.

 

[Gene Wirchenko]

[snip]

I'm going to hang on to Win 7 for dear life! It's the same situation as XP
users
who refused to switch for years. Of course we have to make allowances for

I have two desktop computers on my desktop. My main one is an XP
box. The other one runs 7. I prefer XP, still. One bother is how
Microsoft gratuitously changes the interface, too often for the worse.

To update the time is easier in XP than 7 which added steps.

Drilling down through a directory structure in Windows Explorer
is easier in XP. I do this quite frequently on both computers when
copying files from one to the other using a memory stick (since I do
not have them sharing their drives).

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

 

[Char Jackson]

I have two desktop computers on my desktop. My main one is an XP
box. The other one runs 7. I prefer XP, still. One bother is how
Microsoft gratuitously changes the interface, too often for the worse.

Drilling down through a directory structure in Windows Explorer
is easier in XP. I do this quite frequently on both computers when
copying files from one to the other using a memory stick (since I do
not have them sharing their drives).

Not even a direct network connection?

 

[Char Jackson]

No, I haven't moved the goalposts.

You initially spoke of the capability to burn DVDs, then followed up
by speaking of packet writing. The second is a tiny subset of the
first. So tiny and obscure, in fact, that I'll proactively forgive
myself for not being able to read your mind. :-/

You may have zero interest in doing it, but I have a great deal of interest in
doing it. And Windows 7 does it, Windows 98 did it, but XP doesn't seem to do
it.

DVDs are a great deal less expensive for off-site backup of data files than
hard drives etc.

Have you voluntarily placed yourself under this major constraint, or
has it been imposed upon you by an employer? You have my sympathies if
it's the latter. If it's the former, why haven't you abandoned it a
decade ago? There are such better methods available today.

 

[Steve Hayes]

Have you voluntarily placed yourself under this major constraint, or
has it been imposed upon you by an employer? You have my sympathies if
it's the latter. If it's the former, why haven't you abandoned it a
decade ago? There are such better methods available today.

In what way is it a "major constraint"?

 

[Char Jackson]

In what way is it a "major constraint"?

By your question, I assume you've been doing it so long you've grown
accustomed to it. If you don't see how constraining it is, I barely
know where to start. Carry on, I guess.

 

[Gordon]

By your question, I assume you've been doing it so long you've grown
accustomed to it. If you don't see how constraining it is, I barely
know where to start. Carry on, I guess.

I heard of someone recently who is still using floppy disks......;-)

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Steve Hayes

XP won't let you, but Windows 7 asks whether you want to use it as a WORM disc
(Write One, Read Many).

And Windows 98 used to allow it too, though with a third party-program that
came with my CD Writer.

I've remembered the other proprietary name now: via Nero, from Nero, it
was called InCD as I said before, and via Easy CD Creator, from
Adaptec/Roxio, it was called DirectCD (I think).

Interesting that XP doesn't have native support for it (UDF format).
Presumably if you install Nero or ECDC, it does?
[]

 

[Steve Hayes]

In message <[email protected]>, Steve Hayes


I've remembered the other proprietary name now: via Nero, from Nero, it
was called InCD as I said before, and via Easy CD Creator, from
Adaptec/Roxio, it was called DirectCD (I think).

And I've remembered something else too.

Yes, it comes with Nero, and I have it on my computer, but the version that
comes with Nero will only format R/W discs, not -R or +R ones.

But the first version I had came with the CR wroter on my Windows 98 computer,
from Easy CD Creator, and it used for format CD-R discs as well as the R/W
ones.

I've tried asking Nero whether their full paid for version (as opposed to the
OEM one that comes with the disc drive) has that functionality, but never had
a straight answer.

Interesting that XP doesn't have native support for it (UDF format).
Presumably if you install Nero or ECDC, it does?

Unfortunately not -- only in the older versions.