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[Gene E. Bloch]

Most of what is posted on USENET is an unnecessary distraction, like
whether to answer a ringing phone or not

Hmm. Perhaps I'll begin to gain some insight into...myself

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

True, the ancient Greeks
rather thoughtlessly didn't leave behind any recordings of how ancient
Greek was pronounced

Actually they did, as I understand it. Explicitly in the form of guide
books for learners, but especially in the form of descendant languages,
including modern Greek, from which linguists have made significant
inferences about how the ancestor was pronounced. Rally, how "ancestors
were pronounced, since there are a number of dialects spread over space
and time that have been studied.

but the pronunciation of no language can change
that much over a couple of millennia which let's face it is but a short
span in the history of mankind.

OK, buy an untranslated copy of Beowulf, which is about 1000 years old,
and try to understand it.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

I expected that from our earlier discussion, but I wasn't sure what to
do.

I realized later that I *did* know what to do. I posted this link in the
first post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brothers_Karamazov

It gives the Cyrillic spelling and the pronunciation in IPA
(International Phonetic Alphabet), and I thought your browser and OS
would do fine where your newsreader wouldn't.

Actually, since there's a facsimile there of the title page (as a jpg),
the Cyrillic shows up even if your system can't render the text.

The only problem is that it adds a letter that looks like 'bI'[1] to the
end of Karamazov for Russian grammatical reasons.

[1] *Looks like* 'bI' ... The Cyrillic glyph is a single letter in
Russian.

 

[Paladin]

Hmm. Perhaps I'll begin to gain some insight into...myself

I wasn't criticizing USENET users, only that it is what it is.
If it wasn't for OT threads, that can go as far as the posters wish it to
go, it be quite boring.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

I wasn't criticizing USENET users, only that it is what it is.
If it wasn't for OT threads, that can go as far as the posters wish it to
go, it be quite boring.

I thought you were having fun, actually

And I responded by poking fun at myself. Although maybe it was more
psychologically accurate than I let myself realize (Note: I'm still just
having fun!).

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Can you come up with English words in which the "g" in "ga" is
pronound "gh"? There are very few, but here are two: "algae" and
"gaol."

Not what you're asking, but today I was reading an e-mail of article
pointers from American Scientist magazine, and read this:

"a freshwater algae called Botryococcus braunii"

An algae, a phenomena, a data, where will it end? An alumni? I've seen
that one too, sometimes referring to a female alumni (sic).



BTW, I often use 'data' as a singular noun.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Leaving aside that it isn't (my interpretation of) final in bark, I do
see what you mean. "Bah-k" maybe, but then you get onto how the h is
interpreted. (Baa-k maybe?)

I meant to comment sooner.

I think there is a word in linguistics to describe the situation where a
letter follows a vowel, but if so I have forgotten it, so I just said,
inaccurately, 'final'. Maybe 'post-vocalic' would do?

You are also trapped, as I am and we all are, in the problem of there
being differing dialects of English, so that trying to respell a word to
indicate pronunciation is doomed to failure.

I have some British foreign language texts that describe how to
pronounce sounds in ways that I just can't interpret - but you know, I'd
probably see the same problem in a similar book published here in the
US.

I mentioned in my post (but I clipped it here) that even in my household
there are differences in accent, and we are native US born. Those
differences cause interesting(!) communication problems on occasion.

 

[Ken Blake]

even in my household
there are differences in accent, and we are native US born. Those
differences cause interesting(!) communication problems on occasion.

That's true in many households. Differences in pronunciation can vary
widely from one part of the US to another. I'm from NYC and my wife
from Philadelphia, and every once in a while we don't understand each
other.

Perhaps the biggest difference in US accents is that in some parts of
the US people are rhotic and in other parts they are not. I remember
once, many years ago, being told by a woman in my office who came from
North Carolina something about "flahs." I had no idea what she meant,
and I had her repeat it over and over until both of us got
embarrassed.

"Flahs" was her way of pronouncing "flowers" (that difference is not
just one of rhotacism, but that's a big part of it).

 

[Ken Blake]

Not what you're asking, but today I was reading an e-mail of article
pointers from American Scientist magazine, and read this:

"a freshwater algae called Botryococcus braunii"

An algae,
Ugh!

a phenomena,
Ugh!

a data,

Ugh (with qualifications; see below).

where will it end? An alumni? I've seen
that one too, sometimes referring to a female alumni (sic).

Double ugh!

BTW, I often use 'data' as a singular noun.

"Data, of course is from the Latin "data," which is the plural of the
second declension neuter noun, "datum." But that doesn't mean that in
English, we have to treat it as plural. I almost always treat it as a
mass noun, not a count noun, so it doesn't have singular and plural
forms.

Not about data, but somewhat similar, is one of my favorite stories
(supposedly true, but you never can be sure), about the newspaper
reporter who, while on assignment in a different state, was sent a
telegram by his editor who asked "Are there any news?"

His reply telegram read "Not a new!"

 

[Ken Blake]

And going back a little ways in this thread, talking about
mispronunciation, one of the most commonly mispronounced (and also
misspelled) words these days is "minuscule."

I almost never hear anyone pronounce it correctly and I see it
misspelled almost all the time, even in books, newspapers, etc.

 

[Robin Bignall]

And going back a little ways in this thread, talking about
mispronunciation, one of the most commonly mispronounced (and also
misspelled) words these days is "minuscule."

I almost never hear anyone pronounce it correctly and I see it
misspelled almost all the time, even in books, newspapers, etc.

A (probably natural) confusion with "mini-thing' tending to mean
'small-thing'.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

That's true in many households. Differences in pronunciation can vary
widely from one part of the US to another. I'm from NYC and my wife
from Philadelphia, and every once in a while we don't understand each
other.

Perhaps the biggest difference in US accents is that in some parts of
the US people are rhotic and in other parts they are not. I remember
once, many years ago, being told by a woman in my office who came from
North Carolina something about "flahs." I had no idea what she meant,
and I had her repeat it over and over until both of us got
embarrassed.

"Flahs" was her way of pronouncing "flowers" (that difference is not
just one of rhotacism, but that's a big part of it).

I had a friend I thought had the surname Tower when I lived in the
Boston area. Eventually I discovered that the name was actually Tawa. I
had compensated for a Boston accent which wasn't operative in that case

 

[Ken Blake]

A (probably natural) confusion with "mini-thing' tending to mean
'small-thing'.

Sure. Confusion with many words beginning "mini-," starting with
"miniature."

Even the error in pronunciation (putting the accent on the first
syllable instead of the second) comes from that.

 

[Ian Jackson]

In message <[email protected]>, Ken Blake

But many English words that come from the Latin aren't pronounced as
they are in Latin. For example, do you know anyone who pronounces

Indeed. And then there's the question of how the plural (or
occasionally the singular) should be formed. (If you want to light the
kindling, discuss whether the plural of octopus is octopuses, octopi,
octopodes, ... [to my surprise, my spillchucker accepted the first two
of those three!]. Plus you can take it to the extremes of whether the
endings should decline if the word isn't the subject - when talking of
alumnorum, for example!)

"alumni" as it's pronounced in Latin--"alumnee."

Standard English, again, according to all my dictionaries, including
the OED, has the singular pronounced "a-gha" and the plural "al-jee."

If we're talking of "algae", I'd say the singular is so rarely used
that it's as near obsolete as it is possible for it to be. (I _presume_
you omitted the l accidentally; if not, I certainly haven't come across
that wrinkle. It would remind me of the strange French plural of eggs -
"un oeuf, deux oeufs" [one egg, two eggs] being IIRR pronounced "ern
erf, duh zuh".)

I never knew that about "les oeufs". Are you sure you're not thinking
about "un oeil, deux yeux"?

 

[Ian Jackson]

Alnmouth is pronounced Aln-Mouth or Aln-Mooth?

"ALN-mouth". Even the locals don't say "ALN-mooth". However, I have
heard well-meaning broadcasters occasionally say "ALN-mth". "TYNE-mth is
another victim".

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

In message <[email protected]>, Ken Blake

But many English words that come from the Latin aren't pronounced as
they are in Latin. For example, do you know anyone who pronounces

Indeed. And then there's the question of how the plural (or
occasionally the singular) should be formed. (If you want to light the
kindling, discuss whether the plural of octopus is octopuses, octopi,
octopodes, ... [to my surprise, my spillchucker accepted the first two
of those three!]. Plus you can take it to the extremes of whether the
endings should decline if the word isn't the subject - when talking of
alumnorum, for example!)

"alumni" as it's pronounced in Latin--"alumnee."

Standard English, again, according to all my dictionaries, including
the OED, has the singular pronounced "a-gha" and the plural "al-jee."

If we're talking of "algae", I'd say the singular is so rarely used
that it's as near obsolete as it is possible for it to be. (I _presume_
you omitted the l accidentally; if not, I certainly haven't come across
that wrinkle. It would remind me of the strange French plural of eggs -
"un oeuf, deux oeufs" [one egg, two eggs] being IIRR pronounced "ern
erf, duh zuh".)

I never knew that about "les oeufs". Are you sure you're not thinking
about "un oeil, deux yeux"?

My French-English dictionary agrees with Ken.

The all-French dictionary is silent on the issue.

I would not have spelled the pronunciation the same way, but IMO that's
a matter of taste.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Ken Blake

North Carolina something about "flahs." I had no idea what she meant,
and I had her repeat it over and over until both of us got
embarrassed.

"Flahs" was her way of pronouncing "flowers" (that difference is not
just one of rhotacism, but that's a big part of it).

It's a common difference between parts of England too. Whether certain
words have one or two syllables. Another common one is "mayor", which
(very approximately) has nearer one syllable (i. e. is pronounced "mare"
- "the mare of London") in the south-east, whereas in the north it's
pronounced as definitely two syllables, with the y separating them.
Another interesting one linked to your blooms is flour (ground corn
etc.): some parts pronounce flour and flower more or less the same,
others flour as more or less one syllable but flower as two, and some
even flour as almost two.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"... four Oscars, and two further nominations ... On these criteria, he's
Britain's most successful film director." Powell or Pressburger? no; Richard
Attenborough? no; Nick Park!

 

[Ken Blake]

In message <[email protected]>, Ken Blake
[]
But many English words that come from the Latin aren't pronounced as
they are in Latin. For example, do you know anyone who pronounces

Indeed. And then there's the question of how the plural (or
occasionally the singular) should be formed. (If you want to light the
kindling, discuss whether the plural of octopus is octopuses, octopi,
octopodes, ... [to my surprise, my spillchucker accepted the first two
of those three!]. Plus you can take it to the extremes of whether the
endings should decline if the word isn't the subject - when talking of
alumnorum, for example!)

"alumni" as it's pronounced in Latin--"alumnee."

Standard English, again, according to all my dictionaries, including
the OED, has the singular pronounced "a-gha" and the plural "al-jee."

If we're talking of "algae", I'd say the singular is so rarely used
that it's as near obsolete as it is possible for it to be. (I _presume_
you omitted the l accidentally; if not, I certainly haven't come across
that wrinkle. It would remind me of the strange French plural of eggs -
"un oeuf, deux oeufs" [one egg, two eggs] being IIRR pronounced "ern
erf, duh zuh".)

I never knew that about "les oeufs". Are you sure you're not thinking
about "un oeil, deux yeux"?

My French-English dictionary agrees with Ken.

Not me. It was J. P. Gilliver.

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Sure. Confusion with many words beginning "mini-," starting with
"miniature."

Even the error in pronunciation (putting the accent on the first
syllable instead of the second) comes from that.

Are you saying it's "minus'cule"?

Where'd you find that?

Never mind - I found it as the second pronunciation one of four American
dictionaries, as the only pronunciation in cOED, and as the second of
three pronunciations in OED2.

Not enough to justify to me the idea that min'uscule is wrong...

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

[]
And going back a little ways in this thread, talking about
mispronunciation, one of the most commonly mispronounced (and also
misspelled) words these days is "minuscule."

I almost never hear anyone pronounce it correctly and I see it
misspelled almost all the time, even in books, newspapers, etc.

A (probably natural) confusion with "mini-thing' tending to mean
'small-thing'.

Sure. Confusion with many words beginning "mini-," starting with
"miniature."

Even the error in pronunciation (putting the accent on the first
syllable instead of the second) comes from that.

I rather fear the "mis"pronunciation (and -spelling) is now sufficiently
common that it'll be in dictionaries.

(How do _you_ pronounce the first syllable - short as in mini-, or long
as in minus?)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"... four Oscars, and two further nominations ... On these criteria, he's
Britain's most successful film director." Powell or Pressburger? no; Richard
Attenborough? no; Nick Park!