New computer but win 7 or 8

[SC Tom]

If you're going to have to walk him through things, it would make sense
to advise him to get what you are most comfortable with.

Only if you want a new life partner LOL I agree with both Ken's
assessments; sit him down in front of each and see what he's most
comfortable with. Just don't say things like "I'm not sure I know how to do
that", "That's a really ugly desktop", etc. Let him make up his own mind
without your (possibly) prejudicial influence. He'll never learn to walk if
you carry him all the time. Just my 2¢ worth . . .

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

Just to be a muckraker, ditch Windows in favor of OS X or some flavor of
Linux. LOL

For a novice, I'd have to say OS X, then, rather than Linux.

My own Linux experience is old and minimal, but from that experience,
ISTM that Linux asks a lot of the user, which might be more than mick's
friend (and maybe mick) want to mess with. BTW, I was a long time user
of Unix (of the command line flavor), so Linux wasn't totally a new
thing for me. For that matter, Unix and Linux experience was also useful
to me for the time that I spent with OS X.

 

[Paul]

For a novice, I'd have to say OS X, then, rather than Linux.

My own Linux experience is old and minimal, but from that experience,
ISTM that Linux asks a lot of the user, which might be more than mick's
friend (and maybe mick) want to mess with. BTW, I was a long time user
of Unix (of the command line flavor), so Linux wasn't totally a new
thing for me. For that matter, Unix and Linux experience was also useful
to me for the time that I spent with OS X.

There are plenty of novices out there, who wouldn't be
happy with anything you selected for them

That's part of the problem, is we can't see things the
way they see them.

As I've had a couple disappointments in this department,
what I'd recommend is emulating their previous environment
as closely as possible. In the hope they don't freak out.

(A freak out is defined as - you come back a year later,
to find dust on top of the new computer, and no signs they're
using it.)

*******

For most of us here, we could probably deal with anything
(except the new Ubuntu perhaps ) You can deal with the
MacOSX, if you've got a decent mouse (not the one Apple gives you).
I use the same USB Logitech three button, on my Mac, as on my PC.
Beats the hell out of the mouse that came in the Mac box.

(The one button mouse, where the whole housing goes up-n-down...
As patronizing as it gets... Feels like "my first mouse".
Thanks, Apple. Mine is in "Mint Condition". Not a scratch.)

http://www.gearlive.com/blogimages/applemouse.jpg

Paul

 

[Ken Springer]

For a novice, I'd have to say OS X, then, rather than Linux.

I don't think the "novice" factor is as big a player as the way the
person tends to think.

For a crude stereotype, if you tend to be an artistic type of
personality, i.e. artist, poet, philosopher, etc. you may find the Mac
easier to grasp out of the box. If you're a logical thinker as I am,
i.e. an architect, mathematician, scientist, etc., you'll probably
Windows easier to grasp. For Linux, there seems to be an interface
somewhere that works for someone.

My own Linux experience is old and minimal, but from that experience,
ISTM that Linux asks a lot of the user, which might be more than mick's
friend (and maybe mick) want to mess with. BTW, I was a long time user
of Unix (of the command line flavor), so Linux wasn't totally a new
thing for me. For that matter, Unix and Linux experience was also useful
to me for the time that I spent with OS X.

I've been playing on and off with Linux over the last couple of years.
Seems to me to be a lot more user friendly now, depending on the
"distro", than it's reputation has it. Early on, I was trying to find a
Linux distro that was reminiscent of XP, to install on older hardware
that would be given to social agencies for passing on to single parent
families, senior citizens, folks that had a bona fide need for a
computer but couldn't afford one. Never did come across a combo that
actually worked for what I was trying to do.

OS X is based on, I think, Steve Jobs NeXT OS, which was based on
something like BeOS or similar.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.3
Firefox 20.0
Thunderbird 17.0.5
LibreOffice 4.0.1.2

 

[Ken Springer]

There are plenty of novices out there, who wouldn't be
happy with anything you selected for them

And you'll get this from people who aren't novices, too. :-(

That's part of the problem, is we can't see things the
way they see them.

That's why I suggest putting the individual in front of the computer,
and make them select the one to buy. Then, they can't blame you for the
choice.

As I've had a couple disappointments in this department,
what I'd recommend is emulating their previous environment
as closely as possible. In the hope they don't freak out.

Which is why I was looking for an XP look-a-like for Linux.

(A freak out is defined as - you come back a year later,
to find dust on top of the new computer, and no signs they're
using it.)

*******

For most of us here, we could probably deal with anything
(except the new Ubuntu perhaps ) You can deal with the
MacOSX, if you've got a decent mouse (not the one Apple gives you).
I use the same USB Logitech three button, on my Mac, as on my PC.
Beats the hell out of the mouse that came in the Mac box.

(The one button mouse, where the whole housing goes up-n-down...
As patronizing as it gets... Feels like "my first mouse".
Thanks, Apple. Mine is in "Mint Condition". Not a scratch.)

http://www.gearlive.com/blogimages/applemouse.jpg

Apple has had two button mice since 2004, the Mighty Mouse. The problem
is, unless you know it's two button, you tend to expect it to be one
button since it looks like the one button mouse.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/1747 Unlike Windows mice, there are no
individual buttons. It somehow uses touch sensitive technology.

When I bought this Mac in 2009, that's the mouse I had, and used it for
a long time as a 1 button mouse before learning it was actually a 2
button mouse.

I never liked the way it fit my hand, so I use an MS Wireless Mouse 5000.

FYI, due to legal actions, Apple had to drop the Mighty Mouse moniker.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.3
Firefox 20.0
Thunderbird 17.0.5
LibreOffice 4.0.1.2

 

[...winston]

"mick" wrote in message I have a friend who is asking me to help him choose a new desktop
computer. He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do
much other than email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph
editing. He is also not that computer literate, I have to walk him
through most basic things much of the time.

Choosing a computer to suit his needs is not much trouble but I am
stuck on whether to advise win7 or win8. I know a lot about win7 and
can help him to easily get to grips with understanding it, but if I go
for win8 I know it will be more difficult, as I do not have that here
at home to play with when he asks the inevitable help questions over
the phone.

The new computer will be between 4 and 8gb, no gaming, no touch screen.
I don't want to appear selfish from my point of view and help him spend
his money by buying an already oldish win7 when the newer win8 is
widely advertised as the next best thing since sliced bread if you see
what I mean.

As to myself, I have three machines here with win7 and cannot ever see
me upgrading to win8 as all the reports I have read so far just don't
convince me it is better. I had vista on a couple of machines awhile
back and although it worked well(for me), win 7 just blew it out of the
water and that is what I will be sticking with for quite a long time.

Oh, what to do :-?XP was released in 2001.
If the user purchases a new pc every 12 years then for longevity of support Win8 may be a better choice since over a lengthy time
frame the majority of folks will adapt.

If familiarity of XP vs. Win7 or Win8 is an issue once one gets past the Win8 Modern UI and acknowledges that all desktop based
application software runs in Win8's 'Desktop mode' not in Win8's Modern UI (which is just a different form of the 'previous o/s
Start Menu with shortcuts) then the differences become less significant.

Microsoft is perfectly comfortable with users upgrading from XP to either o/s though the EOL for Support of Win7 (April 2020) will
occur about 7 yrs from now and at the current time estimated to be about 2-4 yrs before Win8's EOL Support.

From a cost perspective - Win7 may actually cost more on a new pc than Win8...thus economics should be in research and discussion.

The easiest part, imo, has already been accomplished...the reality that XP (like its predecessors) is no longer valid for long term
use.

The decision is best made by experiencing either o/s and understanding the other possible variable (like those above).

For my use and recognize not everyone has the same flexibility or opportunity to do as I...but I prefer Win7 Pro on a new desktop
pc (knowing that I can upgrade at my expense to Win8 at any later time) and Win8 Pro on a laptop.

If I were asked about the purchase of a new Win7 or Win8 unit it's probably even more prudent (once one's price range is
understood) to maximize the processor, drive capacity, and RAM to ensure they obtain whatever longevity they might desire.

 

[Mike Barnes]

I use Windows 8, almost exclusively with the traditional desktop
interface, and with Start 8 installed. If you were to look at and use
my computer, you would have a hard time realizing that it's not
Windows 7.

Interesting... exactly how *would* I discover that it's not W7? Would my
desktop look any different, for instance? Would I see my quick launch
bar, my taskbar, and the tray exactly as I do now? With the Windows
Classic theme? (I'm not bothered about the orb, I don't use it.)

 

[mick]

There is a learning curve to go from Win XP to Win 7 also. I can't guess
whether it would make any real difference to your friend either way, and
your experience with 7 would be of *some* help to you when you're being
his W8 tech support.

Is there anywhere where there are computers with Win 7 and Win 8 that he
can play with? Maybe his reactions will be informative.

That is a good idea, I will give him my laptop to play with for awhile
so he gets a feel for win7. There are plenty of new machines in the
shops locally with win8.

And as I was typing, I was thinking that, in spite of what you wrote
above, he might be happy with a touch-screen system, hence Windows 8...

True, I have to realise it is what 'HE' wants, not me

Please forgive me for the unauthorized speculation

Helpful pointers, thank you Gene.

 

[mick]

I have a friend who is asking me to help him choose a new desktop computer.
He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do much other than
email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph editing. He is also
not that computer literate, I have to walk him through most basic things
much of the time.

Choosing a computer to suit his needs is not much trouble but I am stuck on
whether to advise win7 or win8. I know a lot about win7 and can help him
to easily get to grips with understanding it, but if I go for win8 I know
it will be more difficult, as I do not have that here at home to play with
when he asks the inevitable help questions over the phone.

The new computer will be between 4 and 8gb, no gaming, no touch screen.
I don't want to appear selfish from my point of view and help him spend his
money by buying an already oldish win7 when the newer win8 is widely
advertised as the next best thing since sliced bread if you see what I
mean.

As to myself, I have three machines here with win7 and cannot ever see me
upgrading to win8 as all the reports I have read so far just don't convince
me it is better. I had vista on a couple of machines awhile back and
although it worked well(for me), win 7 just blew it out of the water and
that is what I will be sticking with for quite a long time.

Oh, what to do :-?

As someone who recently converted to Win7 [from XP] with a new laptop
purchase, I would strongly advise going with Win7 versus Win8, because that
will be enough of a change to deal with. I am still wishing I had XP back,
and may buy Win7 Pro, just so I can get a better simulation of XP.

As it will be a big jump for him, I guess it will be no harder learning
curve going to win8 as opposed to win7.

His uses and your knowledge of Win7 seems to answer the question to me.

That is my line of thought, but having read through all the messages so
far it seems I need to let him make the choice and I just stay in the
background to give support.

 

[mick]

I've seen this question asked various ways over the years, and it appears to
me, the replies usually don't give the questioner much help, or simply comes
from the wrong viewpoint.

No offense intended, but I think you may be looking at this from the wrong
viewpoint.

Having gone through this thread of about 30 messages before replying to
any I have come to the same conclusion.

When faced with this question, the only question that needs to be asked is,
"What will be the easiest for your friend?" In this case, you'd prefer Win7
because that's easier for you. Would Win7 be easier for your friend?

And the person who is being asked for help needs to think outside the box.
Too many people do not, they tend to stay with what they are familiar with.
Agreed.

I'm not going to attempt to tell you what to recommend, just offer some
thoughts for you to consider while helping your friend.

You've mentioned you have to help your friend with even the most basic tasks.
So perhaps you should look for something less complicated than a newer
desktop with a more complicated OS. I'm thinking along the lines of a
tablet. Look at all of them, Android, iOS, and both versions of the Surface
tablet. See if your friend can do the tasks needed there, and if the OS will
be easier for your friend to pick up and learn. Make sure your friend can
print, scan, etc., whatever needs to be done. If the basics your friend
needs/wants to do can't be done on a tablet, then tablets won't work.

He definitely wants a desktop so he can upgrade to a better sound
system.

Please, don't just do a cursory check, I can't tell you how many times I've
read a post online that says you can't do X and Y with such and such OS, and
I'm sitting here saying to myself, "He/she's full of s**t." LOL Even
check to see if a new peripheral will work, but the old one won't. I'm
thinking specifically of printers here. Maybe the old printer needs to be
hardwired to work. But a new wireless printer would work fine.

His network printer is quite new, there are drivers available for win7
& 8. There are no other peripherals.

If you determine tablets simply won't cut it, then you'll have to go the
desktop route, possibly a laptop. That being said above, think about your
friend first.

My mother asked me for help in choosing her first computer. I was the first
person to have a computer in the family, but had no clue as to what would fit
her. The first requirement I had for that quest was, "Where can she get help
locally if there's a problem?" At the time, Windows and Macs were her only
options. I didn't use either OS. So, I took her to a store, sat her in
front of a Mac computer and a Windows computer, and had the salesman help her
with both. The goal? To figure out which OS made the most sense to her.
She picked the Mac. It was OS 8, I don't remember which version of Windows
was current at the time.

If you really want to consider what your friend is comfortable with, take him
to the store and let him pick between Macs and Windows as they come out of
the box. I have a friend who has never been able to make sense of Windows,
but OS X makes perfect sense to her. I'm comfortable with both, as well as
others, but my Mac really gave me fits early on. And, sometimes still does.
LOL

If you're friend does pick Windows, then I'm with Ken Blake for the following
reasons:

1. It is the current OS from MS. It sound like your friend may have this
computer until it turns to dust. So go with the current OS. I went to
MS
today to help a friend get additional gadgets for Win7, and MS has shut
that down. To use Yoda-speak, "Pi$$ed was I." If you want additional
gadgets, you'll have to get them off the web.

His old computer hasn't quite turned to dust but it has been on life
support for longer than I care to remember

2. With Win 8, your friend can try both the touch screen and desktop screen
in the store. Help will probably be needed. Then, if he does prefer
the
touch screen interface, your basic decision regarding the OS is done.

There are a couple of variations of the touch screen interface. I have
my
Win 8 virtual machine starting up with one of those variations. Make
sure
all options are shown to your friend. I have a 24" widescreen Mac,
with Win 8
starting in the All Apps mode with small icons. IMO, makes the touch
screen
interface tolerable.

Good advice, thank you.

3. As Ken B pointed out, you don't have to start with the touch screen
interface with Win8. I think I had Win 8 booting to the Win 8 desktop,
but
I don't remember how I did that. LOL Paul recommended Classic
Shell.
I have this installed on my netbook with Win7. There are
various skins
you can apply to make Win8 look like earlier Windows Start Menus.

That being said, there are a myriad of Start Menu replacements out
there
that can change the look of Windows. You may find one that is even
easier
for your friend to use. Which translates into less work for you in the
long run.

4. I've not tried the virtual machine(s) in Win 8, but VM software seems
like a non-
player for your question. When I get a real Win 7/8 computer built
(DOA
motherboard replacement is on the way to me) I may give them a try in
8.

5. When picking the hardware, consider your friend's eyesight, and what
configuring
you can do to compensate for that.

Anyway... That's how I'd approach helping your friend pick a new computer.

Do what's best for your friend, not for you. <grin>

I want an easy life, please, please LOL

FWIW, your type of question is what I really enjoy working with. Unlike
most, I don't worry about being spammed from newsgroups. Or, overloaded with
questions. So the reply to address for this message is valid, and if you
want to pick my brain (what's left of it anyway! LOL), feel free to email.

Thanks Ken for taking the time to write so much, a lot of good
information to digest.

 

[mick]

Let me add a few points to my earlier message, strongly recommending
Windows 8, and explain why I say that

1. If Windows 8 is better than Windows 7, for the vast majority of
people it's not much better.

2. But even if it's not better than Windows 7, it's also not worse. In
most cases (again, using the desktop interface and using third-party
software like Start8), it's almost identical.

3. For you, and for almost everyone running Windows 7, there's little
reason to upgrade. Staying with Windows 7, at least for the near
future, should be fine.

4. But for someone buying a new computer and having to choose between
Windows 7 or 8, to me it's no contest: he should choose the newer
version, Windows 8. That's for the following reasons:

a. Windows 8 will be supported longer than Windows 7

b. As new hardware and software comes out, some of it will be
supported only on Windows 8. Get Windows 8 *now*, so you don't have to
upgrade later (but for someone like you who already has Windows 7,
there's no disadvantage to upgrading later rather than now).

c. Security improvements will mostly be directed toward the newest
version, Windows 8.

d. There is *always* a learning curve and a potential for problems
when you take a step as big as this one, regardless of how wonderful
whatever you're contemplating moving to is. Sooner or later you'll
have to upgrade (to Windows 8 or its successor) because you'll want
support for hardware or software that you can't get in 7, but don't
rush it.

e. Your friend should embark on the learning curve to Windows 8 now,
not have to take the learning curve for Windows 7 now, and for Windows
8 later.

So to repeat myself, you and almost everyone else, will have to
upgrade to Windows 8 (or its successor) sooner or later, but there's
no rush. You are not like your friend buying a new computer.

You certainly put a good case across for win8. Your comments are most
welcome, thanks Ken.

 

[mick]

Well you have had some very nice and well thought out responses. I was too
lazy.

What are you going to recommend??

Decisions, decisions, god knows LOL
What is apparent from much of the good advice posted here is for me to
stand back a little and let my friend decide what he thinks he will
like and then for me to help after he has made his choice.
Maybe I will have to learn win8 pretty damn quick. LOL
What makes things a little harder with my friend is that he is French,
talks English OK but doesn't always understand it

 

[mick]

Only if you want a new life partner LOL I agree with both Ken's
assessments; sit him down in front of each and see what he's most comfortable
with. Just don't say things like "I'm not sure I know how to do that",
"That's a really ugly desktop", etc. Let him make up his own mind without
your (possibly) prejudicial influence. He'll never learn to walk if you carry
him all the time. Just my 2¢ worth . . .

You hit the nail on the head there.

 

[Ken Springer]

Thanks Ken for taking the time to write so much, a lot of good
information to digest.

FWIW, much of my suggestions are a compilation of things that have
happened to me in trying to help others. Usually as a result of think I
knew what was best, what I knew how to do, etc. rather than listening to
the other person, and then helping them get what they wanted. Not what
I wanted.

Good luck.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.3
Firefox 20.0
Thunderbird 17.0.5
LibreOffice 4.0.1.2

 

[R. C. White]

Hi, Mike.

<Win>+<Break>

That is, hold down the Windows logo key while you press the Break key. Any
Windows version since at least Win2K will pop up the System Properties page,
which will identify the Windows version that is running.

Trouble is, many modern keyboards don't have a Break key, or they hide it.
Many combine it with the Pause key and we must toggle the Function key
on/off, so they call it the Pause/Break key. Other keyboards require other
workarounds.

Another way is to press the Win key, then type Winver and press Enter. Or
run Control Panel and click System. And there are other ways.

Of course, none of these is obvious from just staring at the monitor screen.
But if you knew how to do this in Win7 (or Vista or WinXP or...), then you
know how to do it in Win8 - and vice versa. And if you didn't know how, it
takes only a minute to learn. ;<)

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2012 (Build 16.4.3505.0912) in Win8 Pro


"Mike Barnes" wrote in message

I use Windows 8, almost exclusively with the traditional desktop
interface, and with Start 8 installed. If you were to look at and use
my computer, you would have a hard time realizing that it's not
Windows 7.

Interesting... exactly how *would* I discover that it's not W7? Would my
desktop look any different, for instance? Would I see my quick launch
bar, my taskbar, and the tray exactly as I do now? With the Windows
Classic theme? (I'm not bothered about the orb, I don't use it.)

 

[Tecknomage]

I have a friend who is asking me to help him choose a new desktop
computer. He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do
much other than email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph
editing. He is also not that computer literate, I have to walk him
through most basic things much of the time.

Choosing a computer to suit his needs is not much trouble but I am
stuck on whether to advise win7 or win8. I know a lot about win7 and
can help him to easily get to grips with understanding it, but if I go
for win8 I know it will be more difficult, as I do not have that here
at home to play with when he asks the inevitable help questions over
the phone.

The new computer will be between 4 and 8gb, no gaming, no touch screen.
I don't want to appear selfish from my point of view and help him spend
his money by buying an already oldish win7 when the newer win8 is
widely advertised as the next best thing since sliced bread if you see
what I mean.

As to myself, I have three machines here with win7 and cannot ever see
me upgrading to win8 as all the reports I have read so far just don't
convince me it is better. I had vista on a couple of machines awhile
back and although it worked well(for me), win 7 just blew it out of the
water and that is what I will be sticking with for quite a long time.

Oh, what to do :-?

The thing to remember about Win8 is that it is primarily optimized for
*touch-screen* hardware. Desktop PC with touch-screen monitor or
tablet PC. It has a smart-phone like GUI.





--
=========== Tecknomage ===========
Computer Systems Specialist
IT Technician
(retired)
San Diego, CA

 

[NY]

The thing to remember about Win8 is that it is primarily optimized for
*touch-screen* hardware. Desktop PC with touch-screen monitor or
tablet PC. It has a smart-phone like GUI.

And this is Microsoft's big error with Win 8: they are trying to force
everyone, even a skilled user of a Windows XP, Vista or 7 desktop PC, to use
an OS which is more suited to a tablet with a touch screen. They are
imposing change for the sake of change, and forcing people to unlearn what
they already know in order to learn something new.

By all means provide a new tablet-oriented shell as an *option* but don't
make it compulsory and throw away the old shell.

From my limited use of Win 8 when setting them up for customers, the innards
of Win 8 are probably fine: it may well be faster, more secure and have a
few additional capabilities. But I'd say that to be usable by anyone who has
prior knowledge of XP/Vista/7, it is essential that Win 7 shell, taskbar and
start button are installed.

 

[Wolf K]

On 4/12/2013 10:49 AM, NY wrote:
[...]

By all means provide a new tablet-oriented shell as an *option* but
don't make it compulsory and throw away the old shell.

[...]

Classic Shell (free) and other 3rd party add-ons (some free, some not)
give you the option. With the traditional GUI, W8 is IMO actually better
than W7 in few (minor) ways, eg, the fly-out window thumbnails on
taskbar icons when apps are running.

YMMV

 

[athiker]

I have a friend who is asking me to help him choose a new desktop
computer. He has an very old machine running win xp, he does not do
much other than email, internet, a bit of video editing and photograph
editing. He is also not that computer literate, I have to walk him
through most basic things much of the time.

Choosing a computer to suit his needs is not much trouble but I am
stuck on whether to advise win7 or win8. I know a lot about win7 and
can help him to easily get to grips with understanding it, but if I go
for win8 I know it will be more difficult, as I do not have that here
at home to play with when he asks the inevitable help questions over
the phone.

The new computer will be between 4 and 8gb, no gaming, no touch screen.
I don't want to appear selfish from my point of view and help him spend
his money by buying an already oldish win7 when the newer win8 is
widely advertised as the next best thing since sliced bread if you see
what I mean.

As to myself, I have three machines here with win7 and cannot ever see
me upgrading to win8 as all the reports I have read so far just don't
convince me it is better. I had vista on a couple of machines awhile
back and although it worked well(for me), win 7 just blew it out of the
water and that is what I will be sticking with for quite a long time.

Oh, what to do :-?

A couple of thoughts.

Whern I made the most recent notebook purchase from HP I had a choice
of Vista or Win 7. I took Vista as I was familiar with it and thought
I would upgrade later to Win 7.

A year or so after that my wife wanted a notebook and all I could find
was Win 7 machines so that is what we bought. Since she had Win 7, I
decided I needed to upgrade to Win 7 so I could answer any questions
she had.

The results:
Immediate after installing Win 7on my notebook, I found that HP had
not and would not be offering Win 7 drivers for my machine since it
wasn't the native OS. I managed to work around that after a few days
but the hassle factor was high and the fiddle factor was ongoing.

The second thing was she never really learned Win 7. It was just too
easy to yell for me.

When she expressed an interest in an I Pad I immediate took her to the
Apple store and bought one and also Apple's support service .

Gave her notebook to my grandson who thinks it is great because it has
big screen and 2 disk drives. (He has no idea the second drive is not
actually working.)

Now when my wife says something isn't right with her I Pad or she has
some question, I just smile and hand her the phone. Life is good.

 

[Ken Blake]

I agree with you to a point. I had Win8 for a while but then started
over for reasons other then the OS and went back to Win7. I just
could not see any advantage to win8 for Desktop use. The plus's, what
few there were, were in very small performance improvements and some
nice (but not critically needed) improvements in some of the native
apps. The Cons included the horrible look to Win8, it was like going
back in time to Win3 with zero finesse in the "looks" aspect.

What you call "the horrible look" isn't there on my machine. Please
reread my message quoted above, and let me repeat "I use Windows 8,
almost exclusively with the traditional desktop interface, and with
Start 8 installed. If you were to look at and use my computer, you
would have a hard time realizing that it's not Windows 7. "