Want To Set Up Dual-Boot With Windows XP And Windows 7


T

tb

First of all, let me clearly state that I am no computer expert so
please be gentle... :)

I have an old desktop that has Windows XP SP3 installed on it. (c:\
drive)

What I would like to do is create a new partition (d:\ drive) by taking
away some of the space occupied by the c:\ drive, install Windows 7 in
it and thus create a dual-boot system.

The catch is that I have purchased an _Upgrade_ version (as opposed to
the _Full Retail_ version) of Windows 7! To be more precise, I have
purchased the DVD version for Windows 7 Home Premium Upgrade. (I am
assuming that the DVD has the SP1 version of Windows 7 on it, even
though it does not say so on the package. But that is not the most
pressing problem now.)

So, the major question that I have is: Is there a way to install
Windows 7 Upgrade version (via a clean install, of course) on a
partition other than the one that has Windows XP on it?

If so, can someone point me to a web site that has step-by-step
instructions on how to do it?

I want you to know that I did research this issue on the web. I did
find some information --but it is ambiguous! Some think that only the
Full Retail version will allow a clean install on a partition other
than the one where Windows XP currently resides. Others do not make it
clear what licensed version of Windows 7 they were using when they
created the Windows XP/Windows 7 dual-boot setup. Others do not offer
enough details.

Why do I want to create a dual-booting setup, you ask? Because my
desktop is rather old and Windows 7 Upgrade Advisor has flagged some
hardware (drivers) problems. I have researched solutions on the web
and found some answers, but I don't know if they will work till I
install Windows 7 on the machine. Therefore, I want to be able to use
Windows XP till I know that everything works fine with Windows 7.
 
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S

Seum

tb said:
First of all, let me clearly state that I am no computer expert so
please be gentle... :)

I have an old desktop that has Windows XP SP3 installed on it. (c:\
drive)

What I would like to do is create a new partition (d:\ drive) by taking
away some of the space occupied by the c:\ drive, install Windows 7 in
it and thus create a dual-boot system.

The catch is that I have purchased an _Upgrade_ version (as opposed to
the _Full Retail_ version) of Windows 7! To be more precise, I have
purchased the DVD version for Windows 7 Home Premium Upgrade. (I am
assuming that the DVD has the SP1 version of Windows 7 on it, even
though it does not say so on the package. But that is not the most
pressing problem now.)

So, the major question that I have is: Is there a way to install
Windows 7 Upgrade version (via a clean install, of course) on a
partition other than the one that has Windows XP on it?

If so, can someone point me to a web site that has step-by-step
instructions on how to do it?

I want you to know that I did research this issue on the web. I did
find some information --but it is ambiguous! Some think that only the
Full Retail version will allow a clean install on a partition other
than the one where Windows XP currently resides. Others do not make it
clear what licensed version of Windows 7 they were using when they
created the Windows XP/Windows 7 dual-boot setup. Others do not offer
enough details.

Why do I want to create a dual-booting setup, you ask? Because my
desktop is rather old and Windows 7 Upgrade Advisor has flagged some
hardware (drivers) problems. I have researched solutions on the web
and found some answers, but I don't know if they will work till I
install Windows 7 on the machine. Therefore, I want to be able to use
Windows XP till I know that everything works fine with Windows 7.
Hello TB,

Sorry I can't help you but, I am in an almost identical hole, so at
least I will try to console you. :) I also have a Win 7 installed and
I want to set up Win2K in the same box. The hard drive with the Win2K is
already in the same computer. I started thinking about the usual
boot.ini and when I began to look for something similar in Win 7, it
made me wish I had gone to a Linux instead of Lose 7.

For a start I know that you cannot install Win Xp first and then Lose 7.
Going with Lose 7 first will very likely work but how to add Win Xp
afterwards is likely to be a messy one. That's the same hole that I am
in. Hopefully, some of our super experts will get us on track soon. Let
us thank them in advance :)
 
N

NoBeef

tb said:
First of all, let me clearly state that I am no computer expert so
please be gentle... :)

I have an old desktop that has Windows XP SP3 installed on it. (c:\
drive)

What I would like to do is create a new partition (d:\ drive) by taking
away some of the space occupied by the c:\ drive, install Windows 7 in
it and thus create a dual-boot system.

The catch is that I have purchased an _Upgrade_ version (as opposed to
the _Full Retail_ version) of Windows 7! To be more precise, I have
purchased the DVD version for Windows 7 Home Premium Upgrade. (I am
assuming that the DVD has the SP1 version of Windows 7 on it, even
though it does not say so on the package. But that is not the most
pressing problem now.)

So, the major question that I have is: Is there a way to install
Windows 7 Upgrade version (via a clean install, of course) on a
partition other than the one that has Windows XP on it?

If so, can someone point me to a web site that has step-by-step
instructions on how to do it?

I want you to know that I did research this issue on the web. I did
find some information --but it is ambiguous! Some think that only the
Full Retail version will allow a clean install on a partition other
than the one where Windows XP currently resides. Others do not make it
clear what licensed version of Windows 7 they were using when they
created the Windows XP/Windows 7 dual-boot setup. Others do not offer
enough details.

Why do I want to create a dual-booting setup, you ask? Because my
desktop is rather old and Windows 7 Upgrade Advisor has flagged some
hardware (drivers) problems. I have researched solutions on the web
and found some answers, but I don't know if they will work till I
install Windows 7 on the machine. Therefore, I want to be able to use
Windows XP till I know that everything works fine with Windows 7.
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows7/Install-more-than-one-operating-system-multiboot
 
P

Paul

Seum said:
Nice job No Beef. Thanks for the link :)
Seum, your situation is different, in that you have Windows 7 already
installed and want to install Win2K. That violates the "newest OS last"
rule, and the recipe will be a bit different for that.

For the OP, the OP is installing Windows 7 after WinXP SP3, so the
install will take less work, and then NoBeef's link is perfect.

If this is a desktop computer, I prefer to install one OS per
disk drive, because then the disk drives can be managed completely
independently. If you put two OSes on the same drive (and one
OS provides boot manager menu services for the other), if you later
decide to delete the OS managing the boot, additional work must be
done to repair the other OS so it can boot again. If you use separate
disks, that avoids that nuisance.

To shrink the C drive down, to make room for C and D, I'd probably
use my copy of Partition Magic. There may be a free, third party
utility, with that capability as well.

Windows 7 has the ability to shrink partitions. I've used that feature
on my Windows 7 laptop. One of the limitations, is the file system can
only be shrunk to 51% of the original size. Windows 7 doesn't know how
to move some of the metadata of the file system, which is why shrinkage stops
at 51%. Using a third party defragmenter utility (30 day trial), I was
able to "move stuff to the left", and alternate between shrink and
third party defragment, until I got down to the desired partition
size (320GB down to 30GB or so). A proper partition management tool,
would take some of the pain out of a solution like that. I did it
my way, just for fun (to show how stupid Microsoft was, for not
being able to move the metadata, like the Raxco PerfectDisk could).

If you booted the Windows 7 install DVD, it will include access to
the command prompt (almost like running MSDOS from the DVD).

http://www.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/image19.png

One of the programs in there, would be "diskpart". Maybe even WinXP has
DiskPart, but I don't know whether WinXP supports "shrink" or not.

"DiskPart Command-Line Options"
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc766465(WS.10).aspx

shrink [DESIRED=<N>] [MINIMUM=<N>] [NOWAIT] [NOERR]
shrink QUERYMAX [NOERR]

Diskpart requires a sequence of commands, like select
a certain disk, select a certain partition, then issue a
command against the selected partition. It helps to examine
someone else's command sequence examples, to see how it's done.

So one way or another, it might be possible to cobble together
a solution to shrink the size of the partition. Even a
Linux GParted CD could do it, but not without scaring you
in the process.

Before attempting a shrink, I'd do a backup for safety. If I
made a silly mistake, my whole disk backup would allow me to put
everything back the way it started. This is one of the only
reasons I can use tools like GParted - I waste a couple hours
on a backup first, just so I can "live dangerously".

Windows 7 will install on an NTFS partition, so if you're going
to prepare D: and size it the way you like, the type should be
NTFS. Windows 7 uses alternate streams, junction points and the
like, and because of stuff like that, FAT32 just isn't good enough
for all of the Microsoft designer tricks.

A 30GB to 40GB partition would probably be enough. I think my laptop
is around 40GB now (I expanded it a bit, before doing SP1), and
that leaves enough room for a few restore points etc. So if
worse comes to worse, that's the kind of partition size you
might use to get started. If I were to install all the crap
I have on my WinXP machine, in Windows 7, I'd probably need
another 10GB on top of that.

Paul
 
T

tb

For the OP, the OP is installing Windows 7 after WinXP SP3, so the
install will take less work, and then NoBeef's link is perfect.
I seem to have read somewhere that Windows 7 Upgrade version wants to
install itself on the _same_ partition where Windows XP is currently
residing. (Via a clean install, of course, so that Windows XP is wiped
out!) Otherwise it thinks that the pre-requisite condition for an
upgrade --i.e. the existence of a licensed copy of Windows XP-- is not
fulfilled. Unfortunately, I cannot locate again the web site where I
read this...

Anyone knows if this is true and, if so, how to get around it? I'd be
interested in hearing a confirmation of feasibility from someone who
has actually installed Windows 7 Upgrade version on a different
partition other than the one where Windows XP resides.

Again, sorry if I am asking some silly question but I am not much of an
expert.
 
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R

R. C. White

Hi, tb.

The link NoBeef pasted should get you onto the right track. I've been
dual-booting for over 10 years but I had not seen that link before. I
especially appreciate the picture (in the link) of the Graphic Display
portion of Disk Management. DM (not Device Manager in this case) is one of
the most useful tools in Windows since it first appeared in Windows 2000
over a decade ago. DM is especially useful as a tool for dual-booting AND
as a reference tool to learn more about hard disks than most users ever
learn. The quickest way to run it is to press Start, type "diskmgmt.msc"
and press Enter.

Since you are using an Upgrade DVD to do a clean install, you'll probably
need to install Win7 in two steps. First install it WITHOUT entering a
Product Key (PK). Then go to the System Properties page and click "Change
product key", near the bottom of the page, and enter your PK. The Retail
and Upgrade disks are identical except for the label and license, so you can
Upgrade with a Retail disk - or vice versa. (My own copy of WinXP stopped
working in 2006, just about the time we finished the Vista beta; I've never
bothered to get it going again and you may also be ready to complete your
upgrade from WinXP after you invest a few days in learning how to use Win7.
Just remember: In spite of their similarities, Win7 is NOT WinXP!) You
might want to read this thread:
http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/31402-clean-install-upgrade-windows-7-version.html

Note that Win7 Setup.exe does several things "behind the curtain" (much like
the Wizard of Oz), keeping them hidden so as not to confuse us. Mainly, in
addition to installing Win7 into the "boot volume" (Drive W: in the example
in the link), it will update the few critical startup files in the System
Partition (your existing Drive C:). (Yes, Windows always starts booting
from the System Partition and keeps its operating system files in the Boot
Volume - even when they are the same partition.) After updating Drive C:,
WinXP's startup files (NTLDR, NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini) will still be
there. But the boot-up process will now start with Win7's "bootmgr" file,
which will use the BCD (Boot Configuration Data) in the new Hidden, System
folder C:\Boot. The BCD will present the OS selection menu each time you
restart, offering to boot into Win7 or into a "Previous version of Windows".
If you select "previous", then the BCD will step back out of the way and
turn control over to NTLDR, which will use Boot.ini to boot WinXP as before.

When Win7 is installed on a virgin disk, it creates a small (100 MB)
partition to use as the System Partition, holding those few startup files.
But when Win7 Setup finds an existing System Partition, such as your Drive
C:, it will use that by updating the files there as I described.

The example in the link starts with the instruction to "1. Turn on your
computer so that your current version of Windows starts normally...", then
insert your disk and let Win7 Setup run. By starting the Win7 install from
the WinXP desktop, Setup can "see" the drive letters that you have assigned
with WinXP. If you've already created a partition for Win7 and assigned it
a letter (W: in the example, but you can assign it D: or any letter not in
use), Setup will use that letter and your Boot Folder will be W:\Windows (or
D:\Windows).

But if you BOOT from the Win7 DVD to install Win7, Setup will not know what
letters WinXP has assigned. It will assign the letter C: to the partition
where Win7 is installed and your Win7 Boot Folder will be C:\Windows, even
though it is the second partition on the disk. Setup will then assign other
letters; WinXP's Drive C: will probably become Win7's Drive D:. That might
confuse you, but neither WinXP nor Win7 will mind. Just be sure to give
each partition a label, which will be written to the disk and will not
change even if the letters shift.

All this is much easier to do than to explain, tb. You can read about it
for a month and just get more confused, but it will become clear as you
actually work through the process. ;^}

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2011 (Build 15.4.3538.0513) in Win7 Ultimate x64 SP1


"tb" wrote in message
First of all, let me clearly state that I am no computer expert so
please be gentle... :)

I have an old desktop that has Windows XP SP3 installed on it. (c:\
drive)

What I would like to do is create a new partition (d:\ drive) by taking
away some of the space occupied by the c:\ drive, install Windows 7 in
it and thus create a dual-boot system.

The catch is that I have purchased an _Upgrade_ version (as opposed to
the _Full Retail_ version) of Windows 7! To be more precise, I have
purchased the DVD version for Windows 7 Home Premium Upgrade. (I am
assuming that the DVD has the SP1 version of Windows 7 on it, even
though it does not say so on the package. But that is not the most
pressing problem now.)

So, the major question that I have is: Is there a way to install
Windows 7 Upgrade version (via a clean install, of course) on a
partition other than the one that has Windows XP on it?

If so, can someone point me to a web site that has step-by-step
instructions on how to do it?

I want you to know that I did research this issue on the web. I did
find some information --but it is ambiguous! Some think that only the
Full Retail version will allow a clean install on a partition other
than the one where Windows XP currently resides. Others do not make it
clear what licensed version of Windows 7 they were using when they
created the Windows XP/Windows 7 dual-boot setup. Others do not offer
enough details.

Why do I want to create a dual-booting setup, you ask? Because my
desktop is rather old and Windows 7 Upgrade Advisor has flagged some
hardware (drivers) problems. I have researched solutions on the web
and found some answers, but I don't know if they will work till I
install Windows 7 on the machine. Therefore, I want to be able to use
Windows XP till I know that everything works fine with Windows 7.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

I seem to have read somewhere that Windows 7 Upgrade version wants to
install itself on the _same_ partition where Windows XP is currently
residing. (Via a clean install, of course, so that Windows XP is wiped
out!) Otherwise it thinks that the pre-requisite condition for an
upgrade --i.e. the existence of a licensed copy of Windows XP-- is not
fulfilled. Unfortunately, I cannot locate again the web site where I
read this...

Anyone knows if this is true and, if so, how to get around it? I'd be
interested in hearing a confirmation of feasibility from someone who
has actually installed Windows 7 Upgrade version on a different
partition other than the one where Windows XP resides.

Again, sorry if I am asking some silly question but I am not much of an
expert.
Actually, what you say makes sense to me, since the upgrade says
somewhere (according to my flawed memory) that you can't keep the old
version.

Wait a few minutes for a more knowledgeable person to expand on this.
 
P

Paul

Gene said:
Actually, what you say makes sense to me, since the upgrade says
somewhere (according to my flawed memory) that you can't keep the old
version.

Wait a few minutes for a more knowledgeable person to expand on this.
If you have a backup of the disk drive, it's full speed ahead :)

Even if you have a recipe fully signed off and approved, a
recipe can go wrong and trash stuff. So you do the
backup anyway, just in case.

I had an example of this the other day. I was testing a Windows
install, and seeing what formatting options the installer had.
I'd selected certain options, but hadn't "pressed the button".
I decided to quit before letting it go ahead. Little did I know,
it had *already* messed with the partition table. It made
a bloody mess. Trashed. Just for fun, I tried fixing it anyway, and
managed to put it all back together again. (Part of the reason
I could, is I had some idea what the partition structure looked
like, and I used TestDisk to fix it.) If you don't want your
install process to be a "learning experience" as mine was,
a backup allows you to make all kinds of mistakes, and not
lose anything.

I didn't have to repair that disk, if I didn't want to. I'd
copied the entire 250GB drive, to another drive, before starting.
So if I hadn't been able to fix it with TestDisk, I could
have just restored it.

If you have a backup, all you lose by getting bad advice, is
some time.

Paul
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Thanks for the suggestion, Paul.
What (free!) software would you recommend for imaging the used sectors of my
hard drive? Looking for something that will have a rescue disc and also
backs up my MBR.
I need something that will image (as opposed to clone) my c:\ partition
because I do not have one of those fancy external hard disks and will have
to do the back up (compressed file) to DVDs.
EASEUS has a couple of programs that can do imaging and can boot & run
from a CD.
 
P

Paul

Gene said:
EASEUS has a couple of programs that can do imaging and can boot & run
from a CD.
Well, anything is better than what I use :) I have lots of (assorted)
spare disks, so by bouncing stuff around from disk to disk, I can
"make room" for a backup. It took about four hours, the last time
I needed a really big space. That's how I could back up the entire
250GB disk, before beginning my adventure. I had to move stuff between
three different disks, until I had a 250GB space available.

A raw drive mechanism, can cost you around $50, and hold a fair amount
of stuff. It's one of the few hardware expenditures I still
allow myself, is replacement hard drives. I use the left-over
drives, for backups of one sort or another.

I would sooner buy a drive, than burn DVDs. I do have a spindle of
rewritable DVDs, but it would be too much work (and the spindle is
too small) to do anything major. I doubt I could back up my largest
drive, using DVDs. I'd need to go out and buy another, larger
spindle.

For sector by sector transfers, I use "dd". This is an example
of a port of "dd", or you can do it with a Linux LiveCD. Sector
by sector backups are very wasteful, and the main reason for
using these, is unattended operation (I set it running
and go work on another project, and there is minimal complexity
to getting it running).

http://www.chrysocome.net/dd

Western Digital and Seagate offer utilities for copying disks,
so if I'd picked up a raw hard drive, and installed it inside
the PC, I could use a utility offered by the disk manufacturer
to do the transfer. I also have my ancient copy of Partition
Magic, which can copy partitions from one disk to another
(subject to some unnecessary size limits).

I've owned "real" backup utilities in the past, but don't bother
with stuff like that any more. If a family member needs backup
software, I try to hook them up with a proper backup utility,
with full or differential or incrementals or the like. But for
the kinds of experiments I do here, I just grab whatever is
convenient, and make a copy. What I do is more like "cloning"
than backing up, and is frequently done for short
periods of time (like, until an install is finished).
I leave the image sitting on the disk for later, and
months later, might overwrite the image with something
else I'm cloning.

Paul
 
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T

tb

Paul said:
If you have a backup of the disk drive, it's full speed ahead :)

Even if you have a recipe fully signed off and approved, a
recipe can go wrong and trash stuff. So you do the
backup anyway, just in case.

I had an example of this the other day. I was testing a Windows
install, and seeing what formatting options the installer had.
I'd selected certain options, but hadn't "pressed the button".
I decided to quit before letting it go ahead. Little did I know,
it had *already* messed with the partition table. It made
a bloody mess. Trashed. Just for fun, I tried fixing it anyway, and
managed to put it all back together again. (Part of the reason
I could, is I had some idea what the partition structure looked
like, and I used TestDisk to fix it.) If you don't want your
install process to be a "learning experience" as mine was,
a backup allows you to make all kinds of mistakes, and not
lose anything.

I didn't have to repair that disk, if I didn't want to. I'd
copied the entire 250GB drive, to another drive, before starting.
So if I hadn't been able to fix it with TestDisk, I could
have just restored it.

If you have a backup, all you lose by getting bad advice, is
some time.

Paul
Thanks for the suggestion, Paul.
What (free!) software would you recommend for imaging the used sectors of my
hard drive? Looking for something that will have a rescue disc and also
backs up my MBR.
I need something that will image (as opposed to clone) my c:\ partition
because I do not have one of those fancy external hard disks and will have
to do the back up (compressed file) to DVDs.
 
S

Seum

Hello and thanks Paul :)
Seum, your situation is different, in that you have Windows 7 already
installed and want to install Win2K. That violates the "newest OS last"
rule, and the recipe will be a bit different for that.

For the OP, the OP is installing Windows 7 after WinXP SP3, so the
install will take less work, and then NoBeef's link is perfect.
So, I got that one upside down or was it inside out. Typical of me!
At this time Paul I am trying to get Win 7 and Win2K on the same box.
Then, when I get my Win Xp SP3 (it's on the way), I'll put it in my
"new" computer on the Seagate 750GB.
If this is a desktop computer, I prefer to install one OS per
disk drive, because then the disk drives can be managed completely
independently. If you put two OSes on the same drive (and one
OS provides boot manager menu services for the other), if you later
decide to delete the OS managing the boot, additional work must be
done to repair the other OS so it can boot again. If you use separate
disks, that avoids that nuisance.
That's what I have done. I have the Win7 on it's own disk drive and I
have my Win2K on another, in the same Advent box. So it should be Win2K
To shrink the C drive down, to make room for C and D, I'd probably
use my copy of Partition Magic. There may be a free, third party
utility, with that capability as well.
I have plenty of space - no need to move partitions.
Windows 7 has the ability to shrink partitions. I've used that feature
on my Windows 7 laptop. One of the limitations, is the file system can
only be shrunk to 51% of the original size. Windows 7 doesn't know how
to move some of the metadata of the file system, which is why shrinkage
stops at 51%. Using a third party defragmenter utility (30 day trial), I was
able to "move stuff to the left", and alternate between shrink and
third party defragment, until I got down to the desired partition
size (320GB down to 30GB or so). A proper partition management tool,
would take some of the pain out of a solution like that. I did it
my way, just for fun (to show how stupid Microsoft was, for not
being able to move the metadata, like the Raxco PerfectDisk could).
I think I'll be able to do without this.
If you booted the Windows 7 install DVD, it will include access to
the command prompt (almost like running MSDOS from the DVD).
That is one pain for me. The Win7 disk was not provided - cheapskate PCWorld
bums. NEVER BUY AN ADVENT COMPUTER. How can I extract the complete Win 7
OS from the Advent disk to get it onto a DVD? About 6 months ago I made
a backup and I guess it would be smart to make another before messing
around with it.
http://www.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/image19.png

One of the programs in there, would be "diskpart". Maybe even WinXP has
DiskPart, but I don't know whether WinXP supports "shrink" or not.

"DiskPart Command-Line Options"
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc766465(WS.10).aspx

shrink [DESIRED=<N>] [MINIMUM=<N>] [NOWAIT] [NOERR]
shrink QUERYMAX [NOERR]

Diskpart requires a sequence of commands, like select
a certain disk, select a certain partition, then issue a
command against the selected partition. It helps to examine
someone else's command sequence examples, to see how it's done.

So one way or another, it might be possible to cobble together
a solution to shrink the size of the partition. Even a
Linux GParted CD could do it, but not without scaring you
in the process.

Before attempting a shrink, I'd do a backup for safety. If I
made a silly mistake, my whole disk backup would allow me to put
everything back the way it started. This is one of the only
reasons I can use tools like GParted - I waste a couple hours
on a backup first, just so I can "live dangerously".

Windows 7 will install on an NTFS partition, so if you're going
to prepare D: and size it the way you like, the type should be
NTFS. Windows 7 uses alternate streams, junction points and the
like, and because of stuff like that, FAT32 just isn't good enough
for all of the Microsoft designer tricks.
I don't think I need to worry about the above for my problem.
I have two separate disks and I don't need to do anything to them,
except maybe to put a boot.ini file on the Win2K disk. Presumably there
would be some small change needed on the Win 7 disk.
A 30GB to 40GB partition would probably be enough. I think my laptop
is around 40GB now (I expanded it a bit, before doing SP1), and
that leaves enough room for a few restore points etc. So if
worse comes to worse, that's the kind of partition size you
might use to get started. If I were to install all the crap
I have on my WinXP machine, in Windows 7, I'd probably need
another 10GB on top of that.
I won't be adding much to C: the Win2K drive which is small - about
12GB. The D: drive will have loads of space for Win 7, etc.
Thanks again Paul.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Well, anything is better than what I use :) I have lots of (assorted)
spare disks, so by bouncing stuff around from disk to disk, I can
"make room" for a backup. It took about four hours, the last time
I needed a really big space. That's how I could back up the entire
250GB disk, before beginning my adventure. I had to move stuff between
three different disks, until I had a 250GB space available.

A raw drive mechanism, can cost you around $50, and hold a fair amount
of stuff. It's one of the few hardware expenditures I still
allow myself, is replacement hard drives. I use the left-over
drives, for backups of one sort or another.
I solved the problem of keeping track by creating a spreadsheet
detailing where all the various backups are, including the archives of
retired computers..

OK, time to be honest: I did create and I do maintain the spreadsheet -
but even so it's a confusing mess...
 
S

Seum

R. C. White said:
Hi, tb.

The link NoBeef pasted should get you onto the right track. I've been
dual-booting for over 10 years but I had not seen that link before. I
especially appreciate the picture (in the link) of the Graphic Display
portion of Disk Management. DM (not Device Manager in this case) is one
of the most useful tools in Windows since it first appeared in Windows
2000 over a decade ago. DM is especially useful as a tool for
dual-booting AND as a reference tool to learn more about hard disks than
most users ever learn. The quickest way to run it is to press Start,
type "diskmgmt.msc" and press Enter.

Since you are using an Upgrade DVD to do a clean install, you'll
probably need to install Win7 in two steps. First install it WITHOUT
entering a Product Key (PK). Then go to the System Properties page and
click "Change product key", near the bottom of the page, and enter your
PK. The Retail and Upgrade disks are identical except for the label and
license, so you can Upgrade with a Retail disk - or vice versa. (My own
copy of WinXP stopped working in 2006, just about the time we finished
the Vista beta; I've never bothered to get it going again and you may
also be ready to complete your upgrade from WinXP after you invest a few
days in learning how to use Win7. Just remember: In spite of their
similarities, Win7 is NOT WinXP!) You might want to read this thread:
http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/31402-clean-install-upgrade-windows-7-version.html


Note that Win7 Setup.exe does several things "behind the curtain" (much
like the Wizard of Oz), keeping them hidden so as not to confuse us.
Mainly, in addition to installing Win7 into the "boot volume" (Drive W:
in the example in the link), it will update the few critical startup
files in the System Partition (your existing Drive C:). (Yes, Windows
always starts booting from the System Partition and keeps its operating
system files in the Boot Volume - even when they are the same
partition.) After updating Drive C:, WinXP's startup files (NTLDR,
NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini) will still be there. But the boot-up process
will now start with Win7's "bootmgr" file, which will use the BCD (Boot
Configuration Data) in the new Hidden, System folder C:\Boot. The BCD
will present the OS selection menu each time you restart, offering to
boot into Win7 or into a "Previous version of Windows". If you select
"previous", then the BCD will step back out of the way and turn control
over to NTLDR, which will use Boot.ini to boot WinXP as before.

When Win7 is installed on a virgin disk, it creates a small (100 MB)
partition to use as the System Partition, holding those few startup
files. But when Win7 Setup finds an existing System Partition, such as
your Drive C:, it will use that by updating the files there as I described.

The example in the link starts with the instruction to "1. Turn on your
computer so that your current version of Windows starts normally...",
then insert your disk and let Win7 Setup run. By starting the Win7
install from the WinXP desktop, Setup can "see" the drive letters that
you have assigned with WinXP. If you've already created a partition for
Win7 and assigned it a letter (W: in the example, but you can assign it
D: or any letter not in use), Setup will use that letter and your Boot
Folder will be W:\Windows (or D:\Windows).

But if you BOOT from the Win7 DVD to install Win7, Setup will not know
what letters WinXP has assigned. It will assign the letter C: to the
partition where Win7 is installed and your Win7 Boot Folder will be
C:\Windows, even though it is the second partition on the disk. Setup
will then assign other letters; WinXP's Drive C: will probably become
Win7's Drive D:. That might confuse you, but neither WinXP nor Win7
will mind. Just be sure to give each partition a label, which will be
written to the disk and will not change even if the letters shift.

All this is much easier to do than to explain, tb. You can read about
it for a month and just get more confused, but it will become clear as
you actually work through the process. ;^}

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2011 (Build 15.4.3538.0513) in Win7 Ultimate x64 SP1


"tb" wrote in message
First of all, let me clearly state that I am no computer expert so
please be gentle... :)

I have an old desktop that has Windows XP SP3 installed on it. (c:\
drive)

What I would like to do is create a new partition (d:\ drive) by taking
away some of the space occupied by the c:\ drive, install Windows 7 in
it and thus create a dual-boot system.

The catch is that I have purchased an _Upgrade_ version (as opposed to
the _Full Retail_ version) of Windows 7! To be more precise, I have
purchased the DVD version for Windows 7 Home Premium Upgrade. (I am
assuming that the DVD has the SP1 version of Windows 7 on it, even
though it does not say so on the package. But that is not the most
pressing problem now.)

So, the major question that I have is: Is there a way to install
Windows 7 Upgrade version (via a clean install, of course) on a
partition other than the one that has Windows XP on it?

If so, can someone point me to a web site that has step-by-step
instructions on how to do it?

I want you to know that I did research this issue on the web. I did
find some information --but it is ambiguous! Some think that only the
Full Retail version will allow a clean install on a partition other
than the one where Windows XP currently resides. Others do not make it
clear what licensed version of Windows 7 they were using when they
created the Windows XP/Windows 7 dual-boot setup. Others do not offer
enough details.

Why do I want to create a dual-booting setup, you ask? Because my
desktop is rather old and Windows 7 Upgrade Advisor has flagged some
hardware (drivers) problems. I have researched solutions on the web
and found some answers, but I don't know if they will work till I
install Windows 7 on the machine. Therefore, I want to be able to use
Windows XP till I know that everything works fine with Windows 7.
Very nice work RCW.

I'm very rusty on this situation. Suppose I have two disks in one
computer, one has Win 7 and the other has Win2K. Win 7 is operating and
Win2K is not. The Win2K was operating in another computer and brought to
this one.

The boot.ini would normally be something like:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WIN2K
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT="Win2K Pro" /fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)\WINNT="Win 7" /fastdetect

What are the chances that Win2K will take the first drive and Win 7 will
take the second?

TIA
 
R

R. C. White

Hi, Seum.

<paste>
The boot.ini would normally be something like:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WIN2K
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT="Win2K Pro" /fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)\WINNT="Win 7" /fastdetect

What are the chances that Win2K will take the first drive and Win 7 will
take the second?
</paste>

No chance at all!

Win7 never heard of Boot.ini - and has no idea how to use it.

As I said, and you quoted:
After updating Drive C:, WinXP's startup files (NTLDR, NTDETECT.COM and
Boot.ini) will still be there. But the boot-up process will now start
with Win7's "bootmgr" file, which will use the BCD (Boot Configuration
Data) in the new Hidden, System folder C:\Boot. The BCD will present the
OS selection menu each time you restart, offering to boot into Win7 or
into a "Previous version of Windows". If you select "previous", then the
BCD will step back out of the way and turn control over to NTLDR, which
will use Boot.ini to boot WinXP as before.
I thought it was obvious, so I did not add: If you select Win7, then it
follows the instructions in the BCD and completely ignores NTLDR,
NTDETECT.COM and Boot.ini.

There are basically two approaches to dual-booting. The one you use
requires two HDDs. Each is set up to boot ONE operating system. To switch
from Win2K to Win7, you must reboot and enter the BIOS to change it to see
the other disk as the "boot device". (Normally this designation is
permanent until you enter the BIOS and change it again, but modern
motherboards - like mine - have a "boot selection key" that we can press
during POST to switch the boot device for the current start only, after
which it will revert to the BIOS setting.)

I've always used the multi-boot system as Microsoft designed it: a single
System Partition that includes the ability to present a menu from which we
can choose which OS to boot this time. This system works like a tree or the
letter "Y". It always starts at the trunk, then branches to whichever OS we
choose. The trunk is the System Partition; each branch is to a separate
Boot Volume for a single Windows version. The System Partition MUST be a
primary partition, marked Active (bootable) on the HDD currently designated
in the BIOS as the Boot Device. Each Boot Volume can be either a primary
partition or a logical drive in an extended partition, and it can be on ANY
HDD in the system. All this has been true since at least WinNT4.0, which is
where I started dual-booting (with Win95) back in 1998. (And, yes, the
System and Boot volume names are counterintuitive, but they have been used
this way since before I first heard about them so there's little chance that
they will be changed. We just have to learn that we BOOT from the SYSTEM
partition and keep the operating SYSTEM files in the BOOT volume - in the
BOOT FOLDER (typically but not always C:\Windows). To compound the
confusion, Win7 developers chose the unfortunate name "Boot" for the folder
(with hidden and system attributes, in the Root of the System Partition -
typically C:\Boot) which holds the BCD. For a definition of these names for
WinXP, see KB314470; in spite of the disclaimers in the KB, it still applies
to Vista and Win7, too.

As stated several times, when Win7 Setup discovers WinXP already installed,
it knows just how to handle it. But Win2K/XP Setup never heard of Win7, so
it has no idea what to do if it finds Vista or Win7 already installed. So
always install the newest Windows LAST - or be prepared to "repair" the
startup files after the older OS is installed.

As I told tb, none of this will really make sense until you have actually
worked your way through it at least once. Then it will seem so clear to you
that you will wonder why everybody else has such a hard time with it. ;^}

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
(e-mail address removed)
Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2011 (Build 15.4.3538.0513) in Win7 Ultimate x64 SP1


"Seum" wrote in message
R. C. White said:
Hi, tb.

The link NoBeef pasted should get you onto the right track. I've been
dual-booting for over 10 years but I had not seen that link before. I
especially appreciate the picture (in the link) of the Graphic Display
portion of Disk Management. DM (not Device Manager in this case) is one
of the most useful tools in Windows since it first appeared in Windows
2000 over a decade ago. DM is especially useful as a tool for
dual-booting AND as a reference tool to learn more about hard disks than
most users ever learn. The quickest way to run it is to press Start, type
"diskmgmt.msc" and press Enter.

Since you are using an Upgrade DVD to do a clean install, you'll probably
need to install Win7 in two steps. First install it WITHOUT entering a
Product Key (PK). Then go to the System Properties page and click "Change
product key", near the bottom of the page, and enter your PK. The Retail
and Upgrade disks are identical except for the label and license, so you
can Upgrade with a Retail disk - or vice versa. (My own copy of WinXP
stopped working in 2006, just about the time we finished the Vista beta;
I've never bothered to get it going again and you may also be ready to
complete your upgrade from WinXP after you invest a few days in learning
how to use Win7. Just remember: In spite of their similarities, Win7 is
NOT WinXP!) You might want to read this thread:
http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/31402-clean-install-upgrade-windows-7-version.html

Note that Win7 Setup.exe does several things "behind the curtain" (much
like the Wizard of Oz), keeping them hidden so as not to confuse us.
Mainly, in addition to installing Win7 into the "boot volume" (Drive W: in
the example in the link), it will update the few critical startup files in
the System Partition (your existing Drive C:). (Yes, Windows always
starts booting from the System Partition and keeps its operating system
files in the Boot Volume - even when they are the same partition.) After
updating Drive C:, WinXP's startup files (NTLDR, NTDETECT.COM and
Boot.ini) will still be there. But the boot-up process will now start
with Win7's "bootmgr" file, which will use the BCD (Boot Configuration
Data) in the new Hidden, System folder C:\Boot. The BCD will present the
OS selection menu each time you restart, offering to boot into Win7 or
into a "Previous version of Windows". If you select "previous", then the
BCD will step back out of the way and turn control over to NTLDR, which
will use Boot.ini to boot WinXP as before.

When Win7 is installed on a virgin disk, it creates a small (100 MB)
partition to use as the System Partition, holding those few startup files.
But when Win7 Setup finds an existing System Partition, such as your Drive
C:, it will use that by updating the files there as I described.

The example in the link starts with the instruction to "1. Turn on your
computer so that your current version of Windows starts normally...", then
insert your disk and let Win7 Setup run. By starting the Win7 install
from the WinXP desktop, Setup can "see" the drive letters that you have
assigned with WinXP. If you've already created a partition for Win7 and
assigned it a letter (W: in the example, but you can assign it D: or any
letter not in use), Setup will use that letter and your Boot Folder will
be W:\Windows (or D:\Windows).

But if you BOOT from the Win7 DVD to install Win7, Setup will not know
what letters WinXP has assigned. It will assign the letter C: to the
partition where Win7 is installed and your Win7 Boot Folder will be
C:\Windows, even though it is the second partition on the disk. Setup
will then assign other letters; WinXP's Drive C: will probably become
Win7's Drive D:. That might confuse you, but neither WinXP nor Win7 will
mind. Just be sure to give each partition a label, which will be written
to the disk and will not change even if the letters shift.

All this is much easier to do than to explain, tb. You can read about it
for a month and just get more confused, but it will become clear as you
actually work through the process. ;^}

RC


"tb" wrote in message
First of all, let me clearly state that I am no computer expert so
please be gentle... :)

I have an old desktop that has Windows XP SP3 installed on it. (c:\
drive)

What I would like to do is create a new partition (d:\ drive) by taking
away some of the space occupied by the c:\ drive, install Windows 7 in
it and thus create a dual-boot system.

The catch is that I have purchased an _Upgrade_ version (as opposed to
the _Full Retail_ version) of Windows 7! To be more precise, I have
purchased the DVD version for Windows 7 Home Premium Upgrade. (I am
assuming that the DVD has the SP1 version of Windows 7 on it, even
though it does not say so on the package. But that is not the most
pressing problem now.)

So, the major question that I have is: Is there a way to install
Windows 7 Upgrade version (via a clean install, of course) on a
partition other than the one that has Windows XP on it?

If so, can someone point me to a web site that has step-by-step
instructions on how to do it?

I want you to know that I did research this issue on the web. I did
find some information --but it is ambiguous! Some think that only the
Full Retail version will allow a clean install on a partition other
than the one where Windows XP currently resides. Others do not make it
clear what licensed version of Windows 7 they were using when they
created the Windows XP/Windows 7 dual-boot setup. Others do not offer
enough details.

Why do I want to create a dual-booting setup, you ask? Because my
desktop is rather old and Windows 7 Upgrade Advisor has flagged some
hardware (drivers) problems. I have researched solutions on the web
and found some answers, but I don't know if they will work till I
install Windows 7 on the machine. Therefore, I want to be able to use
Windows XP till I know that everything works fine with Windows 7.
Very nice work RCW.

I'm very rusty on this situation. Suppose I have two disks in one
computer, one has Win 7 and the other has Win2K. Win 7 is operating and
Win2K is not. The Win2K was operating in another computer and brought to
this one.

The boot.ini would normally be something like:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WIN2K
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINNT="Win2K Pro" /fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)\WINNT="Win 7" /fastdetect

What are the chances that Win2K will take the first drive and Win 7 will
take the second?

TIA
 
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T

Twayne

In
tb said:
First of all, let me clearly state that I am no computer
expert so please be gentle... :)

I have an old desktop that has Windows XP SP3 installed
on it. (c:\ drive)
Is this the machine on which you want to install win 7? Depending on the RAM
and cpu speed available, you might find win 7 to be a real snail of a
system. Check MS for the win 7 requirements to find out. If you meet the
minimum requirements, it's going to be really slow. If you meet the "normal"
requirements, it should run OK. I have 6 Gig of RAM on a laptop with win7
but also with the i7 cpu features. It runs fine with mostly unnoticeable
slowdowns, but that's for normal daily work like a word/spreadsheet program,
DSL router/gateway, e-mail, PaintShop Pro and a couple other open source
programs; nothing that requires much power. For grins, I tried with with a 4
Gig RAM and the noticeable slowdowns were bothersome. Take away the i7
features and it turned into the snail from hell.
So if you want to use several parallel programs that require any muscle,
I have about the minimum of RAM that it needs. Oh, my RAM is also
dual-channel, not the usual single-channel.

Just FYI & food for thought,

Twayne`

What I would like to do is create a new partition (d:\
drive) by taking away some of the space occupied by the
c:\ drive, install Windows 7 in it and thus create a
dual-boot system.

The catch is that I have purchased an _Upgrade_ version
(as opposed to the _Full Retail_ version) of Windows 7!
To be more precise, I have purchased the DVD version for
Windows 7 Home Premium Upgrade. (I am assuming that the
DVD has the SP1 version of Windows 7 on it, even though
it does not say so on the package. But that is not the
most pressing problem now.)
An upgrade version cannot be installed without having a qualitified windows
first. Whether it will let you get away with just showing it the
drive/folder or even the CD, I don't know. Anyone know for sure?

ALSO,
 
C

Char Jackson

I have 6 Gig of RAM on a laptop with win7
but also with the i7 cpu features. It runs fine with mostly unnoticeable
slowdowns, but that's for normal daily work like a word/spreadsheet program,
DSL router/gateway, e-mail, PaintShop Pro and a couple other open source
programs; nothing that requires much power.
What program are you running on your laptop that emulates a DSL
router/gateway? I don't think I've heard of that before. Most people
use a piece of dedicated hardware for that.
 
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H

HoneyMonster

I have 6 Gig of RAM on a laptop
with win7 but also with the i7 cpu features. It runs fine with mostly
unnoticeable slowdowns, but that's for normal daily work like a
word/spreadsheet program, DSL router/gateway, e-mail, PaintShop Pro and
a couple other open source programs; nothing that requires much power.
For grins, I tried with with a 4 Gig RAM and the noticeable slowdowns
were bothersome.
So Windows needs 6GB now? Wow.
 
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