Upgrading old computers

A

Antares 531

Nice simplification below, Wolf. Thanks.


The above applies to the wireless computer that's having connection
problems. If it's not a password issue, then look at encryption
settings. The new router may have defaulted to WPA2 AES PSK while the
older wireless computer may only support WPA (not WPA2) TKIP PSK, for
example. You can offer the right password all day long and it won't
work if they can't agree on what encryption to use. That's why I
suggested disabling the encryption, as a test.
I disabled the security encryption and tried to log the old Wi-Fi
connected desktop computer on but it still balked. The icon showed the
household network as an unprotected site but otherwise all remained
the same.

I have keyed the new SSID and password into the connection pop-up
several times. The process stalls out or times out and nothing
happens. I'll hang loose on the old Wi-Fi desktop computer for the
time being.

Talking about the old Ethernet connected desktop, now:

This morning I bought and installed a new Zonet ZEN3200 Ethernet Card
in the old desktop Ethernet cable connected computer. When I powered
it up it automatically connected to the router and did a download of
updates. This computer has been off-line for several days and I guess
the scheduled updates were behind. Anyway it finished these update
downloads, then did an install with no apparent problems.

The new router seems to have the correct and necessary setup to match
my Ethernet cable connected new desktop computer, my Wi-Fi connected
laptop and now my old Ethernet cable connected desktop computer. The
only computer that still won't connect is the older desktop that has
or needs a Wi-Fi connection.

That older desktop computer does show the new network icon, indicating
that the router is broadcasting this secure connection and the old
desktop is able to receive this broadcast, but when I click on this
icon and get the pop-up window for keying in the password it balks. I
can key in the password and click on the "okay" button and it seems to
be trying to use this password to log onto the router, but after about
5 minutes it times out and quits. Gordon
 
C

Char Jackson

I disabled the security encryption and tried to log the old Wi-Fi
connected desktop computer on but it still balked. The icon showed the
household network as an unprotected site but otherwise all remained
the same.

I have keyed the new SSID and password into the connection pop-up
several times. The process stalls out or times out and nothing
happens. I'll hang loose on the old Wi-Fi desktop computer for the
time being.
Do you have any other (open, unencrypted) wireless networks nearby
that you can try to connect to? It would be nice to verify that the
old wireless computer can connect to *something*, even if it's not
your own network.

Is this a desktop computer or laptop? If desktop, what form factor is
the wireless 'card'? Is it internal, or externally connected via USB,
or something else entirely?

I had a customer about 6 months ago with a similar problem to what you
describe, where her computer could 'see' multiple open networks but
couldn't connect to any of them. A wireless sniffer revealed that her
wireless section could receive wireless signals but wasn't
transmitting anything. I fixed it by plugging in a wireless USB unit,
which gave her the new benefit of being able to place the antenna up
and away from the back of the computer for much better reception.
Maybe you're having the same problem, but you should check by trying
to connect to something, somewhere, just to see if you can.
Talking about the old Ethernet connected desktop, now:

This morning I bought and installed a new Zonet ZEN3200 Ethernet Card
in the old desktop Ethernet cable connected computer. When I powered
it up it automatically connected to the router and did a download of
updates. This computer has been off-line for several days and I guess
the scheduled updates were behind. Anyway it finished these update
downloads, then did an install with no apparent problems.
Excellent! Glad you got it working.
 
C

Char Jackson

Looking better! I went to the local Computer Connections store and
they DID have the Ethernet card and I bought one...Zonet ZEN3200
1/100Mbpps Fast Ethernet Adapter.
Seems like a good choice. Costs about $10 and gets good reviews.
I just checked the old computer and it indicates that the download
process has finished. I clicked the icon to start installing the new
update downloads. All seems to be working very well, and very fast.
Very good!
 
A

Antares 531

Do you have any other (open, unencrypted) wireless networks nearby
that you can try to connect to? It would be nice to verify that the
old wireless computer can connect to *something*, even if it's not
your own network.
I have re-activated the old, damaged router and this computer will
connect with it okay. The old damaged router's Wi-Fi parts weren't
damaged by the lightning strike but the Ethernet parts were damaged
and no longer work with any computer.
Is this a desktop computer or laptop? If desktop, what form factor is
the wireless 'card'? Is it internal, or externally connected via USB,
or something else entirely?
This is an old desktop computer with the Wi-Fi card inserted
internally. The antenna sticks out from the back of the computer box.
I had a customer about 6 months ago with a similar problem to what you
describe, where her computer could 'see' multiple open networks but
couldn't connect to any of them. A wireless sniffer revealed that her
wireless section could receive wireless signals but wasn't
transmitting anything. I fixed it by plugging in a wireless USB unit,
which gave her the new benefit of being able to place the antenna up
and away from the back of the computer for much better reception.
Maybe you're having the same problem, but you should check by trying
to connect to something, somewhere, just to see if you can.
This old computer works well with its Wi-Fi connected to the old,
damaged router. But, when I power down that old router and power up
the new one, then try to get this old computer to connect it balks. It
shows the new router's network available, and lets me key in the
password but it won't go to completion. It times out about 5 minutes
later and quits trying to connect to the new router.
Excellent! Glad you got it working.
I still have one unanswered question here. This connection shows up on
the new router as an amber light. It flickers when there is some
activity going on and it settles down to a steady glow when nothing is
being sent or received. I thought this light on the router should be
green if all is working well. My new desktop computer, which is also
Ethernet connected to this new router shows a green light. It has
channel 1 (Green) and the old Ethernet connected desktop computer has
channel 2 (Amber).

My laptop uses channel 4, (Amber) and seems to be working very well.
What does the Amber vs. Green light color mean? Gordon
 
C

Chris S.

Antares 531 said:
Looking better! I went to the local Computer Connections store and
they DID have the Ethernet card and I bought one...Zonet ZEN3200
1/100Mbpps Fast Ethernet Adapter. I installed this card then
re-connected the power cord and powered up the computer (the old
desktop computer) and it immediately, automatically connected to the
router and began downloading updates. This update process was
obviously a few days behind schedule and it may take a while for it to
finish, so went "hands off" of that computer and am now using my new
desktop to send this message.

I just checked the old computer and it indicates that the download
process has finished. I clicked the icon to start installing the new
update downloads. All seems to be working very well, and very fast.

So, with that computer's problems out of the way I can now concentrate
on the other old desktop which is or hopefully will eventually be
Wi-Fi connected to the router. Wish me well!!!

Gordon
And oh, what a surprise! ;)

Chris
 
C

Char Jackson

I have re-activated the old, damaged router and this computer will
connect with it okay. The old damaged router's Wi-Fi parts weren't
damaged by the lightning strike but the Ethernet parts were damaged
and no longer work with any computer.
Good, it looks like the wireless card is ok. That brings us back to a
configuration setting. Disabling the encryption on your new router
should have allowed the old computer to make a connection, but you
have to make it forget the old settings first.

Second, you have to determine the wireless encryption capabilities of
your old wireless card versus your new router, then settle on the
highest common denominator. That involves looking up the specs of your
old wireless card to see what it supports.
This old computer works well with its Wi-Fi connected to the old,
damaged router. But, when I power down that old router and power up
the new one, then try to get this old computer to connect it balks. It
shows the new router's network available, and lets me key in the
password but it won't go to completion. It times out about 5 minutes
later and quits trying to connect to the new router.
Sure looks like an encryption mismatch. See above.
I still have one unanswered question here. This connection shows up on
the new router as an amber light. It flickers when there is some
activity going on and it settles down to a steady glow when nothing is
being sent or received. I thought this light on the router should be
green if all is working well. My new desktop computer, which is also
Ethernet connected to this new router shows a green light. It has
channel 1 (Green) and the old Ethernet connected desktop computer has
channel 2 (Amber).
According to the Netgear DGN3500 manual, around the top of page 7-2,
an amber LED indicates a 10 Mbps (megabits per second) connection
while a green LED indicates 100 Mbps. Obviously, faster is 'better'
and more desirable.

My conclusion is that your new Network Adapter is configured to
connect at 10 Mbps. You should be able to change that. Make sure, once
you dig into the card's properties, that it's set to 'auto negotiate'
the connection. That usually works, but if it doesn't, you may be able
to force it to 100 Mbps full duplex if the negotiation is failing to
get you there.
My laptop uses channel 4, (Amber) and seems to be working very well.
What does the Amber vs. Green light color mean? Gordon
You gots to read the manual...
I gave you the answer above, but the manual has lots of other good
stuff in it, as well.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

As I read further along after posting the above, I see that I'm late to
the game. Others had already made similar remarks.
And today I see that you replaced the NIC in one computer that was wired
to the router, and it now works.

Eureka.

Now follow the other advice several people have given you and find out
if the WiFi on the other computer is OK (if not, fix it). Then set that
computer up with the password for the new router.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

I'm guessing you chose an encryption method on your new router that
the old wireless computer doesn't support. It can see the SSID, but it
can't negotiate a connection. Like I said in another post, verify
that's the case by temporarily disabling the router's wireless
encryption. It's a simple test that should take less than 2 minutes if
you go slowly.
I'm thinking that Antares doesn't realize that he has to turn off the
WiFi security in the computer as well.
 
W

Wolf K

Good, it looks like the wireless card is ok. That brings us back to a
configuration setting. Disabling the encryption on your new router
should have allowed the old computer to make a connection, but you
have to make it forget the old settings first.

Second, you have to determine the wireless encryption capabilities of
your old wireless card versus your new router, then settle on the
highest common denominator. That involves looking up the specs of your
old wireless card to see what it supports.

Sure looks like an encryption mismatch. See above.
[snip]

I suspect that the old wi-fi card can't handle the newer, longer
encryption keys. If I really wanted the old machine to be part of the
network, I'd spring for a USB wi-fi adapter:

http://www.netgear.com/wifitv

HTH
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

You can hire mine. $100 a kick (gotta supplement the pension somehow).
You made my day. It's well worth the $100, 'cause now I'll be able to
get off my meds...
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 16:18:33 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
[...]

Even though I disagree with most of what you said, I actually agree
with some of it.
Oh oh. You are in trouble!
 
A

Antares 531

And today I see that you replaced the NIC in one computer that was wired
to the router, and it now works.

Eureka.

Now follow the other advice several people have given you and find out
if the WiFi on the other computer is OK (if not, fix it). Then set that
computer up with the password for the new router.
I've re-activated the old, lightning damaged router and this old
computer works well with it, but the damaged router won't connect to
any Ethernet devices. I suppose this part of the old router's Ethernet
connections circuit board was damaged by the lightning surge. But,
this shows that the old computer still functions well with a Wi-Fi
connection.

Now, setting that old computer up with the password for the new router
is where things hang up. The password I've used for other computers on
this new router doesn't work. The WEP/WPA key doesn't work. What can I
try next? Gordon
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Apologizing? I haven't thought of it as apologizing; more describing
what to me what I thought was a word I made up (but I was apparently
wrong).
I've explained, and you've clipped my explanation more than once now,
what quotes so used mean to me and to some others.

And when a new term *is* introduced (i.e., a term that is expected to be
new to the reader), the normal thing is to quote it the first time and
not later in the article.

The repeated quoting just makes it seem all the more apologetic to me.

And we've seen, thanks to Ed Cryer and another poster, that the term is
accepted by others, so

1) I have to stop complaining anyway

2) The quotes should be no longer needed

But what the heck, I and many others do know what you mean by bitness
:)

My spell checker doesn't recognize the word, but it fails to recognize a
lot of perfectly fine words...Ed Cryer's name is one, BTW.
 
P

Paul

Antares said:
The model number on the box is DGN3500.

I downloaded and printed the manual but have not been able to get any
positive results from anything it suggests.
http://docs.netgear.com/dgn3500/enu/202-10487-01/usermanual.pdf

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/25-124-004-Z04?$S640W$

You'd connect some computer, by means of a working NIC and Ethernet
cable, to an RJ-45 (orange colored) on the router. You'd try

http://192.168.0.1

as suggested in the manual. The manual says there is also a symbolic
address, but it relies on the client computer's network properties a bit.
Whereas typing that in the browser, stands a better chance of working.

If you enter the router, and change the default address, that can make
it hard to "find it" later. So it doesn't necessarily have to be
at 192.168.0.1, if someone else in your house has been fooling around
with it.

But if you use the reset button (sometimes, a button actuated with a
paper clip for ten seconds), that will usually reset the address to
the value specified in the manual.

When the login dialog appears in the web browser of the client computer,
the account name to use is "admin" and the password value is equal to "password".
You can then change the password to something else if you want. That
account and password are only used to access the web interface on the
router, not anything else.

Once in there, you can set up the security properties of the Wifi section.

The PPPOE for ADSL would also need to be set up. As in entering a
login name "(e-mail address removed)" and password "some_isp_provided_password".
Those go into a dialog box, when setting up PPPOE. PPPOE is in some
ways, just like dialup modems years ago, in that there is a login
step for authentication. That login name and password, are quite
different in syntax than the typical "admin" "password" stuff used
to get into the web interface of the router.

Anyway, I expect you've already been in there. So the above is
probably redundant info by now.

*******

A wired connection, from some client computer, to the router, is
the best way to access the web interface.

Now, say it doesn't work.

Go to the client computer, open a command prompt as in "cmd.exe",
then type

ping 192.168.0.1

If the cable is good, you should see an activity blink for
each ping packet sent. Check for "blinks" on both ends of the
cable. And the router should echo a response if it is responding.
Otherwise, the client doing the test will show timeouts or no
response when the ping test is done.

I had a router a couple years back, which failed. It had been
sitting in the box, and I pulled it out for a test. It refused
to answer at 192.168.0.1. What I did, was located an application,
which would try ping commands at relatively high speed, and
actually scanned the entire private address space, trying to
get the stinking router to respond. And there was no response
from the interface. The router had two cards inside it, and
the one with the four port switch portion, was "partitioned"
from the card holding the router chip. And I couldn't get a
damn thing from it. It was probably a firmware problem, like
a dead EEPROM.

Some NICs, like the Marvell chip on my current motherboard, have
a thing called "Virtual Cable Tester". If you have a bad PHY
or bad cable, sometimes that can show an open pair in the wire
(like, a broken or shorted wire). I've used that feature a couple
times, for testing the physical interface of a NIC here.

In this example, only two of the four pairs are working right.
And the pin numbering doesn't make sense. If you have a 10/100BT
cable (only four wires, arranged in two pairs), the pin numbers
used are 1,2,3,6. And the "normal" pairs shown here, don't
match that pinout. And if this was supposed to be an eight
wire four-pair, GbE ready cable, then you'd expect all the
pairs to show "Normal". When I had a NIC that wasn't working,
one of the pairs shows "open circuit", and there was dirt on
the connector pins. Once cleaned, it worked again (being careful,
not to damage the pins). The cleaning procedure, is to insert
and remove the connector a few times, and let the rubbing
of the pins do the cleaning.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/mainboards/asus-p4p800e/vct.png

If you had lightning damage, it's not guaranteed the impedance
would be wrong. So even if the impedance test passes, it
still doesn't mean the network will work. But that Narvell
tester, is convenient for detecting a broken wire or dirty
pin on a connector. I think I have two motherboards here, with
that test capability on them.

Paul
 
C

Char Jackson

I've re-activated the old, lightning damaged router and this old
computer works well with it, but the damaged router won't connect to
any Ethernet devices. I suppose this part of the old router's Ethernet
connections circuit board was damaged by the lightning surge. But,
this shows that the old computer still functions well with a Wi-Fi
connection.

Now, setting that old computer up with the password for the new router
is where things hang up. The password I've used for other computers on
this new router doesn't work. The WEP/WPA key doesn't work. What can I
try next? Gordon
I've answered that question multiple times and you keep asking it.
 
C

Char Jackson

Good, it looks like the wireless card is ok. That brings us back to a
configuration setting. Disabling the encryption on your new router
should have allowed the old computer to make a connection, but you
have to make it forget the old settings first.

Second, you have to determine the wireless encryption capabilities of
your old wireless card versus your new router, then settle on the
highest common denominator. That involves looking up the specs of your
old wireless card to see what it supports.

Sure looks like an encryption mismatch. See above.
[snip]

I suspect that the old wi-fi card can't handle the newer, longer
encryption keys.
Not sure what that means. :)
If I really wanted the old machine to be part of the
network, I'd spring for a USB wi-fi adapter:

http://www.netgear.com/wifitv
Agreed, but not THAT one! That connects to a TV, allowing it to
connect to a wireless network. He needs one that plugs into a
computer.
 
P

Paul

Antares said:
I went to the local Best Buy store yesterday but they don't have any
NIC cards that provide means for a Cat 5 hook-up. I'll try some other
stores today.
I've done this and, yes, I can access the router's IP address from
them, but from the two old computers that won't connect to the router,
there is no means for doing this.
Best Buy sells both PCI and PCI Express NIC cards.

I made the mistake of buying their PCI one a while back. TPLINK TG-3269.

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product...spx?path=3d4a392294155ce64f6413a8aee88690en02

What's wrong with it, is it is limited to around 70MB/sec when
run with a gigabit router. It needs quite a bit of CPU power,
to make it work fast. A good NIC doesn't need that much CPU.
The driver uses about five times the amount of CPU that it should.

Anyway, I was able to walk in off the street and buy that. But
that was close to two years ago.

I notice in the "Wired Network Cards" section, it says "Available Online Only",
so perhaps Best Buy's business conditions, don't allow them to stock
as much stuff as they used to. Not a lot of profit in stuff like this.

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/categor...spx?path=3a391375916d833f853fab3de8c832b0en01

Paul
 
C

Char Jackson

I'm thinking that Antares doesn't realize that he has to turn off the
WiFi security in the computer as well.
You normally don't get a chance to do that on the client side. When
you attempt to connect to a wireless network, the two sides negotiate
on their respective capabilities. Things like channel number and
encryption settings are only configured on the router, and the client
only has the option to match up if it can. If it can't, then no
connection is established.

This means that on the client PC, you don't get an opportunity to
specify the channel, nor anything to do with the encryption method.

In the case being discussed, it's looking like he specified an
encryption method that the older computer doesn't support. If so,
there are only two ways to overcome it. Lower the router settings to
match the capabilities of the old wireless computer, or upgrade the
wireless card in the old computer to match the capabilities of the new
router.
 
C

Char Jackson

Best Buy sells both PCI and PCI Express NIC cards.

I made the mistake of buying their PCI one a while back. TPLINK TG-3269.

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product...spx?path=3d4a392294155ce64f6413a8aee88690en02

What's wrong with it, is it is limited to around 70MB/sec when
run with a gigabit router. It needs quite a bit of CPU power,
to make it work fast. A good NIC doesn't need that much CPU.
The driver uses about five times the amount of CPU that it should.
If you have an opportunity to try that exact hardware with Win 7
instead of XP, you might be surprised. I was getting similar
performance with my cheap ($9) Trendnet Gb NICs until I installed
Windows 7. The performance nearly doubled, going to 990+ Mbps on a
regular basis.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 12:15:28 -0500, Antares 531

I have re-activated the old, damaged router and this computer will
connect with it okay. The old damaged router's Wi-Fi parts weren't
damaged by the lightning strike but the Ethernet parts were damaged
and no longer work with any computer.
Good, it looks like the wireless card is ok. That brings us back to a
configuration setting. Disabling the encryption on your new router
should have allowed the old computer to make a connection, but you
have to make it forget the old settings first.

Second, you have to determine the wireless encryption capabilities of
your old wireless card versus your new router, then settle on the
highest common denominator. That involves looking up the specs of your
old wireless card to see what it supports.

This old computer works well with its Wi-Fi connected to the old,
damaged router. But, when I power down that old router and power up
the new one, then try to get this old computer to connect it balks. It
shows the new router's network available, and lets me key in the
password but it won't go to completion. It times out about 5 minutes
later and quits trying to connect to the new router.
Sure looks like an encryption mismatch. See above.
[snip]

I suspect that the old wi-fi card can't handle the newer, longer
encryption keys.
Not sure what that means. :)
If I really wanted the old machine to be part of the
network, I'd spring for a USB wi-fi adapter:

http://www.netgear.com/wifitv
Agreed, but not THAT one! That connects to a TV, allowing it to
connect to a wireless network. He needs one that plugs into a
computer.
First two hits on Amazon (someone else's results order might vary, for
all I know):

http://www.amazon.com/Medialink-Wir...d=1340657744&sr=8-1&keywords=wifi+adapter+usb
http://www.amazon.com/SANOXY-USB2-0...d=1340657744&sr=8-2&keywords=wifi+adapter+usb

The same two in TinyURL form:

http://tinyurl.com/7xxd5mf
http://tinyurl.com/7ee8ggj

There are many more there; there's also eBay, and the usual regular
stores, like NewEgg, plus local stores.
 

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