SOLVED Two routers, 1 Windows?

[Sycthus]

Hi everyone,
I am considering doing a little upgrading with my wireless network. At the moment, we have a perfectly good 54mbps Belkin router, but with 2 storage devices, 2 printers, a Squeezbox, 1 iPhone, 4 laptops and 2 computers. Yeah, it gets a little overloaded. As a result, downloads and online games cut out at irritating points
So if I bought a separate router, what would be the best way to configure it, and could I still access the storage devices/printers on the other network?

 

[Core]

If this were a wired network, i'd use a switch/hub. Since it's wireless... For best results connect the new router to the old by wire (may need to be crossover cabling if ports don't auto). Leave only one of the routers to handle DHCP, or turn it off entirely and assign IP's manually. Don't use them both to DHCP. Most routers have an option for bridged mode.

 

[Windows7Guy]

Hello scythus,

Yes as Core said, Disable DHCP as that will spell disaster with two DHCP routers,unless of course you setup different subnets. Additionally, you will need to put one of them in bridge mode.

So just check with manufacturer make sure no conflicts with brands like cisco and netgear as such, might be best with the same brands.

thanks again,

John
Microsoft Windows Client Support.

 

[Sycthus]

So plug new router into old router, set it it to not DHCP, and assign all IP addresses on that router manually? Am I right?

 

[Digerati]

I think it is bad idea to use a 2nd router. You don't need it and in fact, you really will not be using the second router.

Understand the sole purpose of a router is to connect/isolate two networks. There is only 1 input and 1 output on a router! The 4 Ethernet ports you typically see on routers is really a discrete independent network device - a simple 4-port Ethernet switch that just happens to be built into the same box as the router.

So Core has the correct solution - get a good switch.

 

[Sycthus]

Wow, you've lost me there, I need to ask a few questions....
So my router is supporting 14 devices (forgot to mention the Wii and two DSs), only 3 of these are wired into the four Ethernet ports on the back. All the others are wireless. Things regularly cut out and the router over heats, so how do I not need it?
What I call my router looks like this:

and calls itself a Belkin wireless ADSL modem router.
I'm not getting the 1 input/1 output thing... I'm no software engineer, but I thought wireless internet and TCP/IP worked in two directions...
And what's a switch?

 

[Nibiru2012]

From About.com

Definition: A network switch is a small hardware device that joins multiple computers together within one local area network (LAN). Technically, network switches operate at layer two (Data Link Layer) of the OSI model. Network switches appear nearly identical to network hubs, but a switch generally contains more intelligence (and a slightly higher price tag) than a hub. Unlike hubs, network switches are capable of inspecting data packets as they are received, determining the source and destination device of each packet, and forwarding them appropriately. By delivering messages only to the connected device intended, a network switch conserves network bandwidth and offers generally better performance than a hub.

As with hubs, Ethernet implementations of network switches are the most common. Mainstream Ethernet network switches support either 10/100 Mbps Fast Ethernet or Gigabit Ethernet (10/100/1000) standards.

Different models of network switches support differing numbers of connected devices. Most consumer-grade network switches provide either four or eight connections for Ethernet devices. Switches can be connected to each other, a so-called daisy chaining method to add progressively larger number of devices to a LAN.

Here's a Belkin 5-Port Switch:

Overview

Ideal for dial-up Internet connections, these Switches provide the backbone for sharing e-mail, printers, files, multiplayer games, and hard drives. One computer connects to the modem and the Switch, to become the Internet access point for all your connected computers. Using Internet Connection Sharing Software, you can now share your dial-up Internet access with up to four additional computers-seven for the 8-Port Network Switch. Expanding your network is easy-simply add more Switches through the featured uplink port

http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=136528#

 

[Sycthus]

So I add the switch to one of the Ethernet ports on my modem/router thingy, and it provides an extra 5 slots, without putting any extra strain on the existing router?

 

[Digerati]

so how do I not need it?

I did not say you don't need a router, I said you don't need two routers.

I'm not getting the 1 input/1 output thing... I'm no software engineer, but I thought wireless internet and TCP/IP worked in two directions...

This is hardware, not software!

Your Belkin Wireless ADSL Modem Router is really several devices integrated into one box.

1. A router - which connects your network to the gateway device
2. A 4-port Ethernet switch used to connect 4 Ethernet devices (which could be PCs, switches, hubs, print servers, etc.
3. A Wireless Access Point (WAP) used to connect your wireless devices to your network
4. A gateway device - the device that connects your network to the Internet, in this case, your ADSL modem.

4 separate devices, integrated onto one circuit board and stuffed in one box - to save space and money. Similar to a stereo "receiver". The receiver is really 3 separate devices on one chassis in one case; the preamp used for input selection, the tuner to pick up radio stations, and the amplifier section to power the speakers.

 

[clifford_cooley]

So I add the switch to one of the Ethernet ports on my modem/router thingy, and it provides an extra 5 slots, without putting any extra strain on the existing router?

Thats correct.

The setup here is a modem/router, two network switches, and a Wireless Acess Point.

 

[Sycthus]

Okay, but that is 3 pieces of extra kit that I need to buy. Wouldn't one switch into the back of the oringal router give me more performance?
Or... About.com says http://compnetworking.about.com/od/routers/f/two_routers.htm some interesting stuff. And I know it talks about switches at the end, but if what your saying is right, I'd need more kit and there would still be some strain on the 1st router.

 

[Digerati]

You can add several switches if you want.

 

[Sycthus]

Or just 1 and no WAC?

 

[Digerati]

WAC? Did you mean WAP? You already have that.

As for the number of switches, that depends on the switch. Most have 4 or 8 ports, unless you go to business class.

 

[bassfisher6522]

To make you home network more secure go to your routers home web page and disable SSID broadcast. To do this; type in the 192.168.x.x into your browsers main search bar. The one at the very top. This will turn off your routers broadcast signal that others might pick up and piggy back on.

To solve your intermittent drop outs, try changing you wireless channel. There are 10 or 11 channels to try. Just go right down the list. You could have some interference with some other household device using the same frequency such as microwaves, wireless home phones. Anything that runs at the 2.4 GHz frequency. The location of your router in relation to such devices may also play a part in the drop outs.

 

[Core]

Maybe it's because it's so early in the morning, but I'm confused now.

His network, from what I understand, supports 14 clients, of which only three are wired, and the rest (eleven) are wireless. He is concerned that the wireless traffic from eleven wireless clients on top of the wired traffic is becoming a bit more than one router can handle, ie overheating, laggy performance, etc. I think what he is asking is if adding a second router would take some of the load off from the first one, improving network stability and performance, and maybe extending the life-cycle of the router.

Obviously he doesn't need another firewall/gateway/dhcp server, but if he extends his network with an 8-port switch, what is he going to plug into those ports? He only has three wired clients, which aren't the problem.

I'm not an expert on routers by any means, but are these 40-dollar home routers, which he presumably has, built to handle concurrent traffic from 14 clients? (Then again another router in bridged mode isn't really going to do more than direct that traffic to the first one anyhow)

I did notice his router, according to that pic, is a Wireless-G, and not a Wireless-N, which certainly doesn't help.

 

[Digerati]

I'm not an expert on routers by any means, but are these 40-dollar home routers, which he presumably has, built to handle concurrent traffic from 14 clients?

Unless he has two "points of presence" or POPs (two ISP connections) all the traffic is being shoved into one tiny pipe anyway at the gateway device (modem). The router can handle about 254 devices.

As far as traffic, it is not likely all connected devices are moving lots of data onto or off the Internet at once. If they are, then NO home router or home gateway device will be able to keep up and it is time to invest in some business class network hardware and it is time to pay the ISP for a bigger pipe.

But if we are talking local network traffic, then go with a 1Gb LAN.

If the concern is simply about the wireless devices, then as Core correctly notes, straddling wireless access to 11g is not helping - especially if the network also includes some 11n devices. Mixing protocols on the same wireless network ALWAYS bogs down wireless access - unless you specifically buy a "Simultaneous Dual-Band" wireless access device. Not just "Dual-Band", but Simultaneous Dual-Band".

To make you home network more secure go to your routers home web page and disable SSID broadcast.

This really has no effect on security as it will not keep out even the most amateurish wannabe hacker. All disabling SSID broadcasting does is keep the nosy neighbor whiz kid from seeing that you have a network when he searches for "hotspots", then running through your kid's or dog's names trying to guess the passphrase. The fact of the matter is, whether disabled or not, the SSID is transmitted in clear text in the packet stream so any wannabe with a scanner and easily available sniffer software can see it anyway! So disabling it actually becomes an inconvenience for legitimate users wanting connect a new device while providing absolutely no protection from someone seeking to gain unauthorized access.

Myth vs. reality: Wireless SSIDs

Service set (802.11 network)

Unfortunately, turning off the broadcast of the SSID may lead to a false sense of security. The method discourages only casual wireless snooping, but does not stop a person trying to attack the network.[2]

It is not secure against determined crackers, because every time someone connects to the network, the SSID is transmitted in cleartext even if the wireless connection is otherwise encrypted. An eavesdropper can passively sniff the wireless traffic on that network undetected (with software like Kismet), and wait for someone to connect, revealing the SSID. Alternatively, there are faster (albeit detectable) methods where a cracker spoofs a "disassociate frame" as if it came from the wireless bridge, and sends it to one of the clients connected; the client immediately re-connects, revealing the SSID

 

[Sycthus]

Maybe it's because it's so early in the morning, but I'm confused now.

Amen to that

I see the point of confusion. The last post on the previous page by Digerati, which actually explained everything (and the fact that it's 4 in 1! ), I missed because I simply clicked on the link in my most recent email regarding the thread. Oops!

We already have our SSID to non-broadcasting, just to make sure no pesky neighbours get inventive!

Yes, the Belkin router is only a wireless G, which isn't good, but for reasons too complicated to do with the house we can't move it into any position other than it's current.

Someone mentioned that my network setup could be router, 2 switches and a wireless access point, hence my mentioning of WAP.

Bassfisher, other users in the house aren't having problems, it's just the big games rig that's struggling. A it's far away, and B the MW2 servers are rubbish So no channel changing.

I think I've cleared up nearly everything now. Our 1 8mb POP is a phone line with and ADSL filter on it. Would the switch/router take any strain off it at all?

 

[Digerati]

Someone mentioned that my network setup could be router, 2 switches and a wireless access point, hence my mentioning of WAC.

Again, what is WAC?

Our 1 8mb POP is a phone line with and ADSL filter on it. Would the switch/router take any strain off it at all?

No. Again, once the data streams from all the machines hit the gateway device, you are going out on one pipe and that's a big (tiny!) bottleneck.

Yes, the Belkin router is only a wireless G, which isn't good, but for reasons too complicated to do with the house we can't move it into any position other than it's current.

Well, certainly location, location, location is a significant factor for any wireless network. You can always add another WAP - this one for your 11n devices and that will help share the load on your network side - but again, once you hit your gateway device, you are limited by its capabilities, and the size of your pipe (amount of bandwidth) you are paying for.

 

[Sycthus]

Again, what is WAC?

Did I see WAC? I meant WAP...

Would a switch be a WAP, or would it have to be a router?