Dual core vs Quad core for general apps

S

Splork

This is regarding a WIndows 7 system purchase

Will a quad core processor give any advantage over a similar
range Dual Core (say E8400 3ghz) when only doing multi window
web browsing, word processing (word) and a few other minor apps
including anti virus software??

Perhaps the odd media player event at the same time??

A 4GB memory and a dual core CPU should be snappy, right??

Adding a video board should yield a better performance than
going to a 2.6 ghz quad core. Am I off somewhere in my
thinking??

Thanks
 
T

Thee Chicago Wolf [MVP]

This is regarding a WIndows 7 system purchase
Will a quad core processor give any advantage over a similar
range Dual Core (say E8400 3ghz) when only doing multi window
web browsing, word processing (word) and a few other minor apps
including anti virus software??

Perhaps the odd media player event at the same time??

A 4GB memory and a dual core CPU should be snappy, right??

Adding a video board should yield a better performance than
going to a 2.6 ghz quad core. Am I off somewhere in my
thinking??

Thanks
Nope. General stuff will not benefit from Quad-core. Dual-core will be
plenty fine for the basics.

- Thee Chicago Wolf [MVP]
 
P

Paul

Splork said:
This is regarding a WIndows 7 system purchase

Will a quad core processor give any advantage over a similar
range Dual Core (say E8400 3ghz) when only doing multi window
web browsing, word processing (word) and a few other minor apps
including anti virus software??

Perhaps the odd media player event at the same time??

A 4GB memory and a dual core CPU should be snappy, right??

Adding a video board should yield a better performance than
going to a 2.6 ghz quad core. Am I off somewhere in my
thinking??

Thanks
The video card helps with 3D gaming. That is the main
advantage of a separate video card.

It may have video (movie) decode features (which are accessible
by a couple different movie player programs). Video decode
acceleration helps a bit, if your processor is weak.

The video card may support GPGPU calculations (OpenCL or CUDA
development environments). So far, there might be one
video editor that can use the video card for encoding, and
the performance boost is modest. If you want to write your
own programs to use the GPU for computations, that is another
usage for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gpgpu

If you don't have need of those kinds of features, you might
purchase a motherboard with integrated graphics, and use that.
On an LGA775 motherboard, which uses Core2 processor, integrated
graphics come in the Northbridge (like a G45 perhaps). On the
LGA1156 motherboards, which use say Core i5, the graphics are
split. The CPU has its own GPU, and the motherboard chipset
has the final output stage that drives the connectors on the
I/O plate. For an LGA1156 motherboard, you want one with
the graphics connectors (DVI/HDMI/DisplayPort/VGA). You also
need a processor from the list, that has a GPU in it.

For example, the Core i5-650 is a 3.2GHz dual core processor.
It has an integrated GPU. If you use a video card on the
motherboard, you can turn that off. The price is comparable
to the E8400.

http://ark.intel.com/ProductCollection.aspx?familyId=42912

This is an example of an LGA1156 motherboard, with the graphics
connectors on it. If you use the i5-650, with its integrated
GPU, then the video connectors work on this motherboard. (Always
read the reviews on the motherboard, before buying. If it doesn't
get a five star rating, there is probably a reason.)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128437

That one has VGA, DVI, HDMI, and DisplayPort connectors.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/13-128-437-Z02?$S640W$

*******

I use a dual core processor (E8400), and the only time
I miss not having a quad, is when I render a movie. That
would probably run about twice as fast, if I did. But
I don't do enough movie work, to really care. It might
also speed up Photoshop, but not all the Photoshop
filters are multi-core aware. Some run on a single core.

Paul
 
D

DJT

The video card helps with 3D gaming. That is the main
advantage of a separate video card.

It may have video (movie) decode features (which are accessible
by a couple different movie player programs). Video decode
acceleration helps a bit, if your processor is weak.

The video card may support GPGPU calculations (OpenCL or CUDA
development environments). So far, there might be one
video editor that can use the video card for encoding, and
the performance boost is modest. If you want to write your
own programs to use the GPU for computations, that is another
usage for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gpgpu

If you don't have need of those kinds of features, you might
purchase a motherboard with integrated graphics, and use that.
On an LGA775 motherboard, which uses Core2 processor, integrated
graphics come in the Northbridge (like a G45 perhaps). On the
LGA1156 motherboards, which use say Core i5, the graphics are
split. The CPU has its own GPU, and the motherboard chipset
has the final output stage that drives the connectors on the
I/O plate. For an LGA1156 motherboard, you want one with
the graphics connectors (DVI/HDMI/DisplayPort/VGA). You also
need a processor from the list, that has a GPU in it.

For example, the Core i5-650 is a 3.2GHz dual core processor.
It has an integrated GPU. If you use a video card on the
motherboard, you can turn that off. The price is comparable
to the E8400.

http://ark.intel.com/ProductCollection.aspx?familyId=42912

This is an example of an LGA1156 motherboard, with the graphics
connectors on it. If you use the i5-650, with its integrated
GPU, then the video connectors work on this motherboard. (Always
read the reviews on the motherboard, before buying. If it doesn't
get a five star rating, there is probably a reason.)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128437

That one has VGA, DVI, HDMI, and DisplayPort connectors.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/13-128-437-Z02?$S640W$

*******

I use a dual core processor (E8400), and the only time
I miss not having a quad, is when I render a movie. That
would probably run about twice as fast, if I did. But
I don't do enough movie work, to really care. It might
also speed up Photoshop, but not all the Photoshop
filters are multi-core aware. Some run on a single core.

Paul
I always work on the premise that you need 1 core for each major
program that you wish to run at the same time.

If you only have a browser( multiple windows open is irrelivent) and
email running together a dual core would be ok.

I have Email, firefox, ie8, Office 2007, Agent newsreader open
continuously and a quad core is handy for all those.

I have a I7 with hyperthreading and I often get the message that
Office is using all 8 cores( 2 threads per core). I certainly don't
have a slow down if I then burn a DVD while everything else is running


DJT
 
K

Ken Blake

This is regarding a WIndows 7 system purchase

Will a quad core processor give any advantage over a similar
range Dual Core (say E8400 3ghz) when only doing multi window
web browsing, word processing (word) and a few other minor apps
including anti virus software??

It will probably provide little or no advantage for such uses.

Perhaps the odd media player event at the same time??

A 4GB memory and a dual core CPU should be snappy, right??

4GB is probably more than you need, and you might not see any
difference between it and 2GB.

Adding a video board should yield a better performance than
going to a 2.6 ghz quad core.

The video card probably will also make no difference.
 
S

Stan Brown

I always work on the premise that you need 1 core for each major
program that you wish to run at the same time.
Does the OS aromatically allocate programs among the cores? I've got
an i5, which Windows thinks is four cores.
 
C

Char Jackson

Does the OS aromatically allocate programs among the cores? I've got
an i5, which Windows thinks is four cores.
Aromatically? I knew I smelled something!
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Aromatically? I knew I smelled something!
I wish you wouldn't make a big stink about a mere typo!

(Oh dear - have I contributed to starting a punfest?)
 
C

Char Jackson

I wish you wouldn't make a big stink about a mere typo!

(Oh dear - have I contributed to starting a punfest?)
I have nothing, so hopefully someone who has a nose for this kind of
thing will be along shortly. :)
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

I have nothing, so hopefully someone who has a nose for this kind of
thing will be along shortly. :)
LOL!

But I wouldn't give two scents for the likelihood of that.
 
P

Paul

DJT said:
I always work on the premise that you need 1 core for each major
program that you wish to run at the same time.

If you only have a browser( multiple windows open is irrelivent) and
email running together a dual core would be ok.

I have Email, firefox, ie8, Office 2007, Agent newsreader open
continuously and a quad core is handy for all those.

I have a I7 with hyperthreading and I often get the message that
Office is using all 8 cores( 2 threads per core). I certainly don't
have a slow down if I then burn a DVD while everything else is running

DJT
It sounds like you've already made up your mind.

I'd suggest to you, that you count "consistent" computing loads,
as part of the budget process. If there is a computing task you
only do 10-20 hours per year, then buying "extra iron" for that.
might not make a lot of sense.

To give an example, say you download a lot of movies, then change
the format for usage on media servers in the house, or to run
on your iPod or something. Movie rendering can use more than
one core (depending on the program you're using). If you generally
are always rendering one movie in the background, while doing
other work, then that would count as one or more "loads".

In your example programs above, Office may "run on 8 cores",
but not in terms of its actual usage pattern. I understand,
a recent innovation in Office, is for Excel to be multi-threaded
on basic spread sheet calculations. Now, some people do
financial calculations (for speculating on the stock market),
that run for hours. If Excel only forked two threads while
doing that, perhaps you'd count that as "two loads".

Your multi-core processor, is a "basket" of computing power.
If you're a multi-tasking person, with movie render and
stock market speculator running flat out, while you're trying
to burn a DVD, then perhaps a quad is a good purchase. If
your needs are more modest, you'd find the quad is largely
idle.

Even programs which claim to be multi-threaded, aren't that
way in all usage patterns. For example, Adobe Photoshop has
half its filters single-threaded, and the other half are
multi-threaded. And a particular version of Photoshop from
a few years back, for the multi-threaded filters, was only
running them on two cores. You need to understand the
limitations of each program, to decide how many "loads"
the program counts as.

Microsoft Flight Sim FSX, is an example of a multithreaded
game. But it has a limitation, as to how many useful threads
it launches on the fly. The program task can only be
split into so many pieces (map lookahead, current frame
render, AI planning of interfering airplanes, or whatever).
Eventually, even a well written program like that,
runs out of useful things to do with the cores. So if
I bought a dual socket motherboard, and put Hyperthreaded
hex core processors in there, would FSX run faster ? No.
And it's because there is a limit as to how finely, any
computing task can be chopped up. Games are particularly
bad, because the "boss thread" tends to be the limiting
part of the design. (On a quad, core loading is 100-30-30-30 %).

In the case of Photoshop, the design intent at Adobe, is
to prefer "accuracy" over "speed". For example, when an
image is rotated 5 degrees clockwise, 72 times, the resulting
image should be back in the same orientation it was originally.
But the image could be degraded, by the 72 image transformation
operations. Adobe picks algorithms, which give as little
degradation as possible, in that kind of test case. In some cases,
it means the filter design, can only be run on one core.
And that's why Photoshop is "half-multithreaded". So when
some bozo in a computer shop, tries to sell a $5000 computer
to some naive photographer, most of those computing
resources will be wasted. And each new version of Photoshop
can change that (like the two thread limit, was fixed with a
patch).

And the computing industry, doesn't do a good job of
communicating how their programs use the cores. So you
can't even be a "smart shopper", go to the Adobe site,
and get info on how multiple cores would help you. You
have to learn of these things, by reading forum postings.

On computing tasks that "scale perfectly", you get a
roughly linear speedup, with cores and clock speed. But
there really aren't a lot of programs that fit that
description. In terms of benchmarks, only Cinebench comes
close, and if you look at how the program works, you'll
realize it's "cheating". (I recommend downloading
Cinebench, just to watch the GUI while it runs. Should
be fun on your i7.)

So when you buy that hex core processor, most of it is
going to be idle, most of the time. It's like owning
a 600HP car. The speed limit in the city is 30 MPH,
you can burn rubber for the first two seconds, and then
you're at the speed limit. The engine gets 5 miles to the
gallon. And makes great sound effects.

For 10-20 hours per year, I'd love to own a quad. But
for the rest of the time, the dual is fine.

*******

I have one other data point to share. I was given a laptop
as a gift. It runs Windows 7. It has a single core processor
(the horror!). Yet, Windows 7 does a surprisingly good job,
of working with only one core. For example, I haven't
seen any "stutter" effects, like I've seen on previous
single core desktops, running older OSes.

In my testing so far, performance remains acceptable, until
I install a certain webcam software package. Even when the
webcam is unplugged, the laptop runs slower. I have a feeling,
if the laptop had a dual core, that side-effect of bloat,
would be less evident. And hence, why I recommend to people,
that a dual core be a minimum solution. The single core works,
and for example, I can web surf on that machine just fine. But
I can't leave the webcam software installed (Logitech should be
proud of themselves).

*******

Even the designers of the processors, are aware of the usage
pattern issues. That is why they introduced "Turbo" (faster
clock speed, when only one core is being used).

The AMD hex core, has an option to turn down half the cores
when under light load. Internally, if you look at a silicon
die photo, it looks like two three-core processors living
on the same silicon die. And like one of those engine designs,
that turns off half the cylinders, the AMD design can save
some power, when it's not being run flat out. The configuration
can be changed relatively quickly (100s of microseconds). Actually,
you'd be surprised how many tricks are being used now. And
how transparent they are to the user.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/phenom-ii-x6-1090t_3.html#sect0

Paul
 
X

xfile

As others said, it will provide little or no advantage for your *current*
use.

But are you absolutely positively sure that these would be the only use for
the next 3-5 years?

If you have thought about playing some fancy games or learning video/picture
editing, and you are not a hobbyist enjoying upgrading components, I'd
suggest you to get it done now so you would have some expansion room for the
future.

Otherwise, you should be OK.

Hope this helps and good luck!
 
D

DJT

It sounds like you've already made up your mind.

I'd suggest to you, that you count "consistent" computing loads,
as part of the budget process. If there is a computing task you
only do 10-20 hours per year, then buying "extra iron" for that.
might not make a lot of sense.

To give an example, say you download a lot of movies, then change
the format for usage on media servers in the house, or to run
on your iPod or something. Movie rendering can use more than
one core (depending on the program you're using). If you generally
are always rendering one movie in the background, while doing
other work, then that would count as one or more "loads".

In your example programs above, Office may "run on 8 cores",
but not in terms of its actual usage pattern. I understand,
a recent innovation in Office, is for Excel to be multi-threaded
on basic spread sheet calculations. Now, some people do
financial calculations (for speculating on the stock market),
that run for hours. If Excel only forked two threads while
doing that, perhaps you'd count that as "two loads".

Your multi-core processor, is a "basket" of computing power.
If you're a multi-tasking person, with movie render and
stock market speculator running flat out, while you're trying
to burn a DVD, then perhaps a quad is a good purchase. If
your needs are more modest, you'd find the quad is largely
idle.

Even programs which claim to be multi-threaded, aren't that
way in all usage patterns. For example, Adobe Photoshop has
half its filters single-threaded, and the other half are
multi-threaded. And a particular version of Photoshop from
a few years back, for the multi-threaded filters, was only
running them on two cores. You need to understand the
limitations of each program, to decide how many "loads"
the program counts as.

Microsoft Flight Sim FSX, is an example of a multithreaded
game. But it has a limitation, as to how many useful threads
it launches on the fly. The program task can only be
split into so many pieces (map lookahead, current frame
render, AI planning of interfering airplanes, or whatever).
Eventually, even a well written program like that,
runs out of useful things to do with the cores. So if
I bought a dual socket motherboard, and put Hyperthreaded
hex core processors in there, would FSX run faster ? No.
And it's because there is a limit as to how finely, any
computing task can be chopped up. Games are particularly
bad, because the "boss thread" tends to be the limiting
part of the design. (On a quad, core loading is 100-30-30-30 %).

In the case of Photoshop, the design intent at Adobe, is
to prefer "accuracy" over "speed". For example, when an
image is rotated 5 degrees clockwise, 72 times, the resulting
image should be back in the same orientation it was originally.
But the image could be degraded, by the 72 image transformation
operations. Adobe picks algorithms, which give as little
degradation as possible, in that kind of test case. In some cases,
it means the filter design, can only be run on one core.
And that's why Photoshop is "half-multithreaded". So when
some bozo in a computer shop, tries to sell a $5000 computer
to some naive photographer, most of those computing
resources will be wasted. And each new version of Photoshop
can change that (like the two thread limit, was fixed with a
patch).

And the computing industry, doesn't do a good job of
communicating how their programs use the cores. So you
can't even be a "smart shopper", go to the Adobe site,
and get info on how multiple cores would help you. You
have to learn of these things, by reading forum postings.

On computing tasks that "scale perfectly", you get a
roughly linear speedup, with cores and clock speed. But
there really aren't a lot of programs that fit that
description. In terms of benchmarks, only Cinebench comes
close, and if you look at how the program works, you'll
realize it's "cheating". (I recommend downloading
Cinebench, just to watch the GUI while it runs. Should
be fun on your i7.)

So when you buy that hex core processor, most of it is
going to be idle, most of the time. It's like owning
a 600HP car. The speed limit in the city is 30 MPH,
you can burn rubber for the first two seconds, and then
you're at the speed limit. The engine gets 5 miles to the
gallon. And makes great sound effects.

For 10-20 hours per year, I'd love to own a quad. But
for the rest of the time, the dual is fine.

*******

I have one other data point to share. I was given a laptop
as a gift. It runs Windows 7. It has a single core processor
(the horror!). Yet, Windows 7 does a surprisingly good job,
of working with only one core. For example, I haven't
seen any "stutter" effects, like I've seen on previous
single core desktops, running older OSes.

In my testing so far, performance remains acceptable, until
I install a certain webcam software package. Even when the
webcam is unplugged, the laptop runs slower. I have a feeling,
if the laptop had a dual core, that side-effect of bloat,
would be less evident. And hence, why I recommend to people,
that a dual core be a minimum solution. The single core works,
and for example, I can web surf on that machine just fine. But
I can't leave the webcam software installed (Logitech should be
proud of themselves).

*******

Even the designers of the processors, are aware of the usage
pattern issues. That is why they introduced "Turbo" (faster
clock speed, when only one core is being used).

The AMD hex core, has an option to turn down half the cores
when under light load. Internally, if you look at a silicon
die photo, it looks like two three-core processors living
on the same silicon die. And like one of those engine designs,
that turns off half the cylinders, the AMD design can save
some power, when it's not being run flat out. The configuration
can be changed relatively quickly (100s of microseconds). Actually,
you'd be surprised how many tricks are being used now. And
how transparent they are to the user.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/phenom-ii-x6-1090t_3.html#sect0

Paul
I don't have many programs that use more than one core, only MS Office
2007. My main use of multi core is multiple programs open at the same
time , each in seperate cores

DJT
 
S

Splork

As others said, it will provide little or no advantage for your *current*
use.

But are you absolutely positively sure that these would be the only use for
the next 3-5 years?

If you have thought about playing some fancy games or learning video/picture
editing, and you are not a hobbyist enjoying upgrading components, I'd
suggest you to get it done now so you would have some expansion room for the
future.

Otherwise, you should be OK.

Hope this helps and good luck!
Thanks for all the observations/suggestions.

It is a Friends system. I have a quad core i5-750 assembled
myself. Running at 3.7GHZ with a cheap air cooler (had to
lap). Sweet CPU & Chipset.

Friend wants a little obsolescence protection and thinks he
should up the hardware of a basic system. Since he feels
better doing that, I will suggest going from the e8400 to the
i5-650 instead of a quad core. Will be a dell purchase. I
think that a e8400 with 2gb memory would likely never be
exceeded by his application load. But if he decides to do
something a bit more demanding a year from now ~~~ it should
not faze the stronger system.
 
C

Chuck

Thanks for all the observations/suggestions.

It is a Friends system. I have a quad core i5-750 assembled
myself. Running at 3.7GHZ with a cheap air cooler (had to
lap). Sweet CPU& Chipset.

Friend wants a little obsolescence protection and thinks he
should up the hardware of a basic system. Since he feels
better doing that, I will suggest going from the e8400 to the
i5-650 instead of a quad core. Will be a dell purchase. I
think that a e8400 with 2gb memory would likely never be
exceeded by his application load. But if he decides to do
something a bit more demanding a year from now ~~~ it should
not faze the stronger system.
The last time I looked at Intel processors, the newer ones used 3 memory
channels. This makes me think that 3G is the minimum RAM (3x1G sticks)
for maximum speed/efficiency in memory use. 2G DDR3 RAM strips are
reasonable in price, so I'd likely install 6G, and install Win 7 64.
 
P

Paul

Chuck said:
The last time I looked at Intel processors, the newer ones used 3 memory
channels. This makes me think that 3G is the minimum RAM (3x1G sticks)
for maximum speed/efficiency in memory use. 2G DDR3 RAM strips are
reasonable in price, so I'd likely install 6G, and install Win 7 64.
The LGA1366 motherboard socket, supports three memory channels,
and on a full sized motherboard, they offer six DIMM slots.

This is the population table for a certain Asus LGA1366 motherboard.
Core i7 is a processor choice for that socket. I don't know if the list
is exhaustive or not, and whether the two and three stick
combos would include the other equivalent set of slots or not.
Asus doesn't always put all permutations and combinations in
the manual.

DIMM A2 DIMM A1 DIMM B2 DIMM B1 DIMM C2 DIMM C1
1 Stick --- Yes --- --- --- ---
1 Stick --- --- --- Yes --- ---
1 Stick --- --- --- --- --- Yes

2 Stick --- Yes --- Yes --- ---
3 Stick --- Yes --- Yes --- Yes
4 Stick Yes Yes --- Yes --- Yes
6 Stick Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes

In at least one review article, they found little difference
between the two stick case in the table above, and the
three stick case. So while in theory, the bandwidth of
the three stick case is higher, in typical desktop
usage, you might not notice the effects of that bandwidth.

Some LGA1366 motherboards, were sold with four DIMM slots
to save space on the motherboard. And that would correspond
to the strange four stick configuration from the table above,
rather than neutering an entire channel.

LGA1366 also has a habit of "losing DIMMs", but I haven't
seen a definitive conclusion why. It apparently isn't
always a socket/contact problem. I've seen accounts
of people installing 6x2GB and the system only reporting
8GB available.

Paul
 

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