SOLVED How hot is "too hot"?

[catilley1092]

Just a few minutes ago while folding, my CPU temp reached 100C. I have a temperature monitor called "CPU Thermometer 1.0" installed, it resembles one of those old time outdoor ones. It is set to warn me at 100C, reboot at 105C, shutdown at 110C. I did edit these values, the default warning was 90C, but I was tired of the warnings.

The max temperature the CPU can withstand is 115C, according to the factory specs. Would this number still apply to a six year old Pentium M?

Otherwise, it has been running incredibly good in the last week or so, no more BSOD's, no more constant CHKDSK at startup, no problems at all, but extreme heat. Last week, I got so mad at it, I flashed the BIOS five times straight, and have had no problems since. I ran PassMark's Burn in Test, it totally exercised it for two hours straight, over 240 Billion processes with ZERO errors. The drive even quit running so hot.

The BIOS must like being flashed.

But really, how hot is too hot? I have made every effort short of disassembling it, I'm not going to do that. I'm not good with tiny parts. I've went as far as placing one of those solid plastic "ice packs" that comes with many coolers under it (wrapped in a towel), all it did was drop to 80C, and melt the ice in the pack.

Cat

 

[Nibiru2012]

I flashed the BIOS five times straight, and have had no problems since.

Are you saying that you ran the same BIOS firmware update flash FIVE TIMES? (Example firmware A012 flashed 5 times.)

Once is sufficient my friend, believe me! No offense here, but you have this propensity to overdo everything when it comes to wiping hard drives, etc., now it's with a BIOS flash

Oh my young Padawan! It's not like intercourse, where 5 times is ALWAYS better than just once. When wiping a hard drive or flashing a BIOS with a firmware update, once is usually enough 99.9% of the time.

I ran PassMark's Burn in Test, it totally exercised it for two hours straight, over 240 Billion processes with ZERO errors. The drive even quit running so hot.

That's good... very good!

my CPU temp reached 100C

I have told you what the problem is, but you still won't do anything about. Go ahead and "burn baby, burn" your CPU and motherboard 'till you have a puddle of melted plastic, solder and assorted sundry parts.

You know Cat, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why you're overheating.

 

[catilley1092]

I know that you told me about the cleaning, reapplying thermal paste and all, but I have trouble with those small parts. My hands constantly tremble, they're numb & tingly, sometimes it's all I can do to type, and that I do with my middle fingers. And if it weren't for the 10mg of valium (the blue ones) every four hours, it would be worse. Larger parts like hard drives, and RAM sticks (if they're not hard to get to), I can manage.

My lower back was what put me out of work, now it's traveled to my neck, from my shoulder blades, to the base of my skull. Because of the meds I take, and the loss of feeling in my arms and hands, I can no longer even drive. At some point, my neck will require the same surgery (multi-level fusion) that was performed on my lumbar region (a four level fusion). Some days, I can't even get on the computer, it's that bad.

And you stand correct in what you told me, but I just can't do it anymore.

My question was how hot is too hot, meaning the critical point, so that I can shut it down for a while. It's warranty runs until October 7, 2011. I know it won't last that long, but need to save some cash to go with the refund, to buy what I want. About seven to eight months, I'll have enough to buy one of those really nice Toshiba's with.

At what point do I need to shut down for a while, between folding jobs, or sooner, before it reaches the meltdown point?

Cat

 

[yodap]

My question was how hot is too hot, meaning the critical point, so that I can shut it down for a while.

Maybe this is too hot.

 

[Nibiru2012]

Myself, I would consider anything over 70 C to be too hot.

My motherboard is set up to auto-shutdown when the CPU reaches that temperature.

 

[catilley1092]

Maybe this is too hot.

Now that is really hot, yodap! I've never seen one do like that before.

As far as running at 70C, I don't think the notebook has run that cool since it was purchased, once it's ran for five minutes or so. Sitting at idle, with no load, it runs at 78C. One thing for sure, no more eBay refurbs for me, period. I'll go back to using the ones at the library first.

Now, after almost ten days of going strong, the Acronis Drive Monitor is reporting critical errors again (ntfs, event ID 55). Time to pull out the flash drive with the BIOS update again. But I'll only flash it once next time.

Thanks for the advice.

Cat

 

[clifford_cooley]

Time to pull out the flash drive with the BIOS update again. But I'll only flash it once next time.

Cat, you have already flashed your BIOS. Flashing it again will usually get you nowhere unless it's a newer BIOS version. You are taking to many chances that something can go wrong during a flash that will render you computer useless.

I don't mind flashing a computer but will only do it once per BIOS version to minimize any chances of the flash going wrong such as a power outage. Knock on wood, I have never had any issues flashing a BIOS but there is always a first especially if you do it over and over.

 

[Digerati]

I did edit these values, the default warning was 90C, but I was tired of the warnings.

I don't understand this. You get a warning that your CPU is too hot, so instead of ceasing the activity causing the CPU to get too hot, you just change the warning threshold??? That's like putting a piece of black tape over the low oil light for your car engine because you don't like to see the bright, flashing, red light that's telling you your engine is about to burn up!

I don't let my CPUs get over 60°C! As Nibiru2012 said, over 70°C is too hot!

For starters, STOP FOLDING!!!! And yes, I am SHOUTING AT YOU!

What are the specs of this computer? If it was running over 70°C from day one, you should have sent it back!

Sitting at idle, with no load, it runs at 78C.

Then you got a problem that needs to be fixed! I am sorry you have medical issues that prevent you from doing fine detail work, but oh well! - you aren't the only one with problems. If you can't do it yourself, take it to a shop. If budget is tight, save your pennies. But regardless, stop abusing this system and stop Folding! Running a CPU at excessive temperatures for long periods of time does much more than increase the aging process of the CPU. Surely the interior of your case is hotter than normal and that puts stress on all the components inside. Note the bottom line in my signature! Excessive heat on a CPU socket can cause it to warp. Microfractures can develop in the board underneath.

I ran PassMark's Burn in Test, it totally exercised it for two hours straight, over 240 Billion processes with ZERO errors. The drive even quit running so hot.

You almost sound proud that it got so hot the drive shut down.

Have you tried another temperature monitor see if that 100°C is even right? I am amazed actually, the system does not shut down on your much earlier. Especially being an "M" CPU, which stands for mobile. They are supposed to toggle down when they get hot. What does Everest to verify your temperatures. Look under Computer > Sensor, then wait a couple seconds for the readings to appear. Unfortunately, Everest does not minimize to the system tray to show real-time temperatures full time. Are your fans spinning?

Note that TIM (thermal interface materials) do not go bad on their own and should not need to be replaced UNLESS the HSF was removed or moved so the cured bond was broken. Then the old should be always be removed, the mating surfaces completely cleaned, and a fresh proper layer of new TIM applied. Never reuse TIM once it has cured. And while applying better TIM may drop a few degrees, the OEM TIM (typically pads) should be good enough. If not, then something else is causing the overheating problem and that needs to be resolved.

 

[Nibiru2012]

I concur with both Cliff and Digerati on this one!

Although I have seen stock TIM age and dry out, especially if it's a paraffin-based compound. (Usually this only happens if running the CPU at high temps, which you have.)

As Digerati suggested either use Everest or S.I.W., both will tell you the temps of your systems sensors. They're very accurate programs.

Another good tool is: HWiNFO32™ - A powerful system information tool for Windows and it's freeware too. Plus it will work on a 64-bit system.

Click the following link to download it. This is the portable or "free standing" version so it doesn't install to your system. When activating, click the "Configure" button first and select "Show Sensors" then click the "Run" button.

http://www.hwinfo.com/files/hw32_356.zip

 

[Digerati]

Although I have seen stock TIM age and dry out, especially if it's a paraffin-based compound.

This is true, and as you noted, especially the paraffin based compounds - which are typically the pads that come pre-applied to heat sinks. BUT, that does not matter - as long as the cured bond between the CPU and heatsink is not broken or disturbed, the TIM between the mating surfaces remains good.

If the bond is broken or disturbed, then and only then can insulating air get in. Note when new, those pads are very thick, not conducive to creating a surface to surface mating of the two surfaces. But the way they work is when the CPU heats up the first time, the special (fast melting) paraffin melts, and the pressure from the heatsink clamping device squishes the excess out the sides. What is left is the actual TIM and as long as the bond remains intact, no air can get inside, and the TIM remains fully functional. So as long as the HSF assembly is never removed, or twisted or bounced about, the bond should be fine, and so should the TIM.

 

[Digerati]

Ummm, why was this thread marked "solved"?

 

[TrainableMan]

If a BIOS flash fails you can easily end up with an expensive paperweight. Writing the same BIOS more than once is risky and for all intents and purposes worthless.

I have my desktop set to shut-down at 70C and a laptop with it's confined spaces, I would never want near that.

 

[Digerati]

There are two events in the last 30 years working with computers that changed how I use computers. One was defragging when the power went out, and the other was flashing the BIOS when the power went out. The first resulted in hard drive corruption, the second destroyed the BIOS chip, which today, would mean a new motherboard - back then, we replaced the chip. I have never had a computer that was not on a good UPS with AVR since.

Even though today's motherboard and BIOS makers do a good job of making flashing the BIOS chip a safe procedure, it is still a very risky process. As the name defines, it is the "basic" set of instructions the hardware needs to start communicating. All a motherboard knows how to do when first powered up is to look in the BIOS for its next set of instructions. So flashing the BIOS is always risky, whether flashing the same BIOS or not.

I have my desktop set to shut-down at 70C

Me too.

 

[Nibiru2012]

Good post Digerati! All computer users should use a quality UPS (uninterruptible power supply) with built-in AVR (automatic voltage regulation).

Especially if one lives in an area subject to thunderstorms, tornadoes, brown-outs / black-outs, snow storms, ice storms, etc.

The AVR is an excellent feature which regulates and smooths out the voltage spikes, fluctuations and ensures that all your electronics are receiving clean power and stabilizes the voltage to a nominal 120VAC or 240VAC depending upon where one lives.

 

[Digerati]

Especially if one lives in an area subject to thunderstorms, tornadoes, brown-outs / black-outs, snow storms, ice storms, etc.

Not just that. All high wattages appliances (refrigerators, toasters, coffee pots, water coolers, MW ovens, hair dryers, etc.) dump anomalies on the line whenever they cycle on and off. These include surges, spikes, sags (opposite of surges) and dropouts/dips (opposite of spikes). Power supplies, or rather, quality power supplies, and motherboard regulator circuits are designed to handle and compensate for most of these anomalies. The problem is, these appliances often send abnormal "events" and these can strain, or worse yet, damage the PSU, and in extreme cases, the computer too. You cannot trust, for example, a $15 (or even a $50) 1500watt hair dryer will not fail and send a huge spike down the line. So if you have any of those devices in your home or office, you need a good UPS with AVR. If you live in an apartment building, you need a good UPS with AVR.

The AVR is an excellent feature which regulates and smooths out the voltage spikes, fluctuations

It is important to note that a surge and spike protector is little more than a fancy, and expensive, extension cord. The way they work with surges and spikes is they "clamp" or chop off the tops of the sinewaves leaving a "dirty" voltage for the PSU and motherboard regulator circuits to deal with. They are designed to do that, but it causes them to work harder, which means more heat (see the last line in my sig).

But a S&S protector does absolutely nothing for low voltage events (dips and sags) once again leaving that task to your expensive and sensitive electronics. A good UPS with AVR uses the batteries to boost the voltage in low voltage events, providing good, solid, and clean regulated power to not only your computer's power supply, but, if large enough UPS, your LCD monitor (or monitors), all your network hardware, PDA, even your phone.

As far as power during a blackout - that's just the icing on the cake!

 

[yodap]

Excellent information from everyone in this post.
Thanks guys.
Nibs, thanks for hwinfo32.

As an experiment, I ran the program and my cpu single core Celeron temp was 48C. It didn't move much just surfing the web and playing a game of freecell. Then I started folding to see what happens. After 15 minutes it was reading 55C. So roughly a 15% rise.
Point being that Cat's temps can't blame the folding program entirely for his wild numbers. Dirt and dust are probably just part of the issue. Something must have been wrong with that laptop from day 1, and I mean prior to being "refurbished".

 

[catilley1092]

It probably was, yodap. I did use a vaccum hose (one with known good suction) and cleaned all grooves, openings, and even the keyboard (my vaccum has an attachment for this purpose). It's not the fan, you can feel the air blowing five to six inches away from the notebook, and it does cycle.

This is more than a matter of dust & dirt, and once again goes to show Dell's shoddy work. After all, they did the refurbishment, their sticker of proof of it is on the bottom of it. I guess they reinstall the OS, do some simple tests the we ourselves can do, clean the outside, and repackage it. Then, the older ones like this one is, is resold to brokers in wholesale lots of thousands, who in turn resells them for a huge profit on eBay, or other online auction sites.

But, having had one other bad experience at the time, as well as another one later, I knew to purchase a warranty. And I did, a two year one, for a little over forty dollars. That is the whole purpose of purchasing warranty protection, to cover your butt, and have peace of mind that when a major failure happens, you're in good hands.

IF it was an item that was newer, and worth the money, I would carry it for repair. But why spend a couple hundred bucks (or more) on something that you can't even break even on, if you were to attempt to sell it? With notebooks as cheap as ever, many around the $400 range (I've checked the ads today), they are far better, why spend the cash to fix this one? Kind of like putting a new transmission into a car that is burning oil, not a bright decision. Besides that, Dell Latitudes of those years were notorious for running hot, only I didn't know that until recently.

And I do know that heat kills electronics, as when I was younger, I fried a couple of audio amplifiers that I had installed in my car (both on separate occasions). They were professionally installed, using the proper guage wiring, were grounded properly, had a capacitor to reduce the headlights from dimming during hard bass spikes, had fans installed to keep them cool, and despite all of this, they eventually fried. And they were not cheap amps either, they were purchased from Crutchfield, a nationally known leader of sales of fine electronics, when they were in their infancy. Yet despite my purchasing quality equipment, having it installed the right way and all, in the end, heat killed them both. I've even had home stereo amps fuses blow to protect the system, not to mention the speakers that blew, all electronics produces heat, and I've known this for a long time.

Thanks to all who have took their time to respond to my post, a lot of useful posts were made, even though I had long marked it as solved after a few posts. I never expected a simple question to draw so many responses. On my next notebook purchase, which will be a new one, as well as my desktop, I now know some things to watch out for.

Cat

 

[catilley1092]

Since my question is directly related to this thread, and it's the same notebook in question, where many excellent answers were posted, I felt it best to revive this thread, rather than starting a new one. Many bases were covered.

After this thread ended, I've since replaced the RAM, and more notably, the keyboard aruond the later part of last year. That's when I realized that Nibs was right, this notebook was PACKED with dust. It took nearly 2 cans of air to clean it out real good.

As soon as I done this, my temps dropped right then, for 2 weeks, the temps were around 70C, a 20C + drop. But within 2 weeks, the (CPU) temps were right back to where they were. It's slowed my folding & overall performance of the notebook.

Would cleaning & reapplying the thermal grease on the CPU/Heatsink be of help to me? I would have already done so, but considering the age of it (5 years), and how long it has ran hot, I have fears that I may crack the MOBO by doing so, the possibility that it may be becoming brittle. Plus, it's well known about the quality of Dell's MOBO's.

And if it is feasible, what grease/paste should I use, and do I apply it to the heatsink also? When cleaning it, I removed the heatsink (I believe that's what it was, a long, curved part, with radiator looking fins next to the fan. It had no paste/grease whatsoever on it. Only a thick coat of dust, which I wiped off with only a damp cloth.

I would like to do this, I have a bookmarked tutorial as to how to disassemble it, that's how I learned to replace the keyboard. It was very simple to do.

Thanks for any advice given.

Cat

 

[Digerati]

If the cured bond of the current TIM (thermal interface material) has not been broken, then replacing the TIM will not help. TIM does not go bad, old, or dry out, unless the bond is broken. If it is the OEM pad, you might get 4 - 5° drop by using a quality TIM.

 

[yodap]

Sorry cat, I can't offer any advice for doing this kind of work on a laptop/notebook.