Help and Support

  • Thread starter Dave \Crash\ Dummy
  • Start date

D

Dave \Crash\ Dummy

I find more and more that answers to posted questions are readily
available in Windows Help and Support. This group should be the last
place to look for answers, not the first. Try Help and Support first,
then Google or Bing. You will likely get the best answers faster.
 
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J

Jan Alter

Dave "Crash" Dummy said:
I find more and more that answers to posted questions are readily
available in Windows Help and Support. This group should be the last
place to look for answers, not the first. Try Help and Support first,
then Google or Bing. You will likely get the best answers faster.
--
Crash

"The real question is not whether machines think but whether men do."
~ B. F. Skinner ~

How about specifying which Windows Help and Support site you mean. I did a
google search for what you listed and the first site that came up wants $150
for each help issue I wanted to ask.
If you actually mean going to Microsoft.com for help and support then
I'm following your line of thought. However, I have found NGs invaluable for
the many folks who can add a different perspectives to solving problems as
well as the human touch. I unquestionably would miss the opportunity both
help and be helped, question and banter and exchange information.
 
S

Seth

Jan Alter said:
How about specifying which Windows Help and Support site you mean. I did a
google search for what you listed and the first site that came up wants
$150 for each help issue I wanted to ask.
If you actually mean going to Microsoft.com for help and support then
I'm following your line of thought. However, I have found NGs invaluable
for the many folks who can add a different perspectives to solving
problems as well as the human touch. I unquestionably would miss the
opportunity both help and be helped, question and banter and exchange
information.
I believe he is referring to the "Help and Support" link that's right off
the Start menu on the Windows 7 machine.
 
J

Jan Alter

Seth said:
I believe he is referring to the "Help and Support" link that's right off
the Start menu on the Windows 7 machine.
I hadn't considered that right off the bat. There goes that different
perspective.
Thanks,
 
V

VanguardLH

Dave said:
I find more and more that answers to posted questions are readily
available in Windows Help and Support. This group should be the last
place to look for answers, not the first. Try Help and Support first,
then Google or Bing. You will likely get the best answers faster.
Many don't bother reading the app or OS included help. Many don't
bother looking in Microsoft's huge support knowledgebase, the vendor's
FAQ page for an app, or visit the app vendor's own forums to research
and then ask a more focused user community. Many don't bother to search
and read the newsgroups before posting. Instead they post knee-jerk
questions while omitting sufficient details for anyone else to begin
diagnosing their problem. Many never go to their public library to read
even one book on the app or OS. Because users can install an OS makes
them believe they have the skills to administer it. Rare few
investigate all the configuration options for a new app. And, as you
note, these same lazy users don't bother to Google or online search on
their topic. They're looking (hoping) for a quick fix without having to
expend any effort themself in finding it. They don't want to spend the
time or don't have the time to go look. Many posters don't even
consider that someone ELSE has to understand what they write and they
don't review their message before submitting it. If you suggest more
than one solution, expect them to focus on only one of them so you'll
have to repeat the others.

There is a new crop of uneducated that lack initiative every year.
It'll never end. In Usenet, you have a choice as to whom you help since
you volunteer your time here. At a help desk, you have to help all who
ask because that's your job.
 
S

SC Tom

VanguardLH said:
Many don't bother reading the app or OS included help. Many don't
bother looking in Microsoft's huge support knowledgebase, the vendor's
FAQ page for an app, or visit the app vendor's own forums to research
and then ask a more focused user community. Many don't bother to search
and read the newsgroups before posting. Instead they post knee-jerk
questions while omitting sufficient details for anyone else to begin
diagnosing their problem. Many never go to their public library to read
even one book on the app or OS. Because users can install an OS makes
them believe they have the skills to administer it. Rare few
investigate all the configuration options for a new app. And, as you
note, these same lazy users don't bother to Google or online search on
their topic. They're looking (hoping) for a quick fix without having to
expend any effort themself in finding it. They don't want to spend the
time or don't have the time to go look. Many posters don't even
consider that someone ELSE has to understand what they write and they
don't review their message before submitting it. If you suggest more
than one solution, expect them to focus on only one of them so you'll
have to repeat the others.

There is a new crop of uneducated that lack initiative every year.
It'll never end. In Usenet, you have a choice as to whom you help since
you volunteer your time here. At a help desk, you have to help all who
ask because that's your job.
I agree with you 100%. Plus, if a person has any knowledge at all, it's almost a lesson in futility calling any kind of
help desk. ISP's (cable or otherwise) have their own "crop of uneducated" manning the phones, usually with a flow chart
of some sort in front of them (computer or hard-copy).
"First, let's reboot."
"OK, did that fix the problem?"
(10 minutes later and still no solution)
"I'm going to connect you with the next level of help." (Which usually means someone who knows how to turn a PC on
without asking someone else where the power button is.)
(30 minutes and many tears of frustration later, you just give up.)

My stepson had a helpdesk job with Comcast a few years back, and knows virtually nothing about PCs. He sure knows his
way around a phone though, I'll give him that :) He was the one telling me about the flowchart method of
troubleshooting over the phone. The good thing about it is that it gives a nice place to start; the bad thing is if
someone has already tried the first 12 steps before calling, it's a colossal waste of time that could have been used to
actually fix the problem.
Granted, not all desks are like that, but the majority seem to be (if you can understand the thick accent to start
with). I had to call Charter the other day because there was no network available at all. Oh joy, automated help desk.
"Ok, say what your problem is." (No internet)
"Ok, there seems to be an outage in your area. Our technicians are working as hard and fast as they can to resolve the
problem. Is there anything else I can help you with today?" (no)
"OK, goodbye."
 
D

Dave \Crash\ Dummy

SC said:
I agree with you 100%. Plus, if a person has any knowledge at all,
it's almost a lesson in futility calling any kind of help desk. ISP's
(cable or otherwise) have their own "crop of uneducated" manning the
phones, usually with a flow chart of some sort in front of them
(computer or hard-copy). "First, let's reboot." "OK, did that fix the
problem?" (10 minutes later and still no solution) "I'm going to
connect you with the next level of help." (Which usually means
someone who knows how to turn a PC on without asking someone else
where the power button is.) (30 minutes and many tears of frustration
later, you just give up.)

My stepson had a helpdesk job with Comcast a few years back, and
knows virtually nothing about PCs. He sure knows his way around a
phone though, I'll give him that :) He was the one telling me about
the flowchart method of troubleshooting over the phone. The good
thing about it is that it gives a nice place to start; the bad thing
is if someone has already tried the first 12 steps before calling,
it's a colossal waste of time that could have been used to actually
fix the problem. Granted, not all desks are like that, but the
majority seem to be (if you can understand the thick accent to start
with). I had to call Charter the other day because there was no
network available at all. Oh joy, automated help desk. "Ok, say what
your problem is." (No internet) "Ok, there seems to be an outage in
your area. Our technicians are working as hard and fast as they can
to resolve the problem. Is there anything else I can help you with
today?" (no) "OK, goodbye."
Usually the second solution (after rebooting) is to format and reinstall
your system. :)
 
B

BeeJ

But...
Most newbies and some oldies (like myself) simply do not know the
correct terminolgy to search for. And when we do (a blind) search we
usually get confsed by the wrong anwers that are out there.

What are friends for anyway!
 
B

Bob I

But...
Most newbies and some oldies (like myself) simply do not know the
correct terminolgy to search for. And when we do (a blind) search we
usually get confsed by the wrong anwers that are out there.
Yes, spelling words incorrectly generally causes one to spend an
inordinate amount of time trying to locate the desired answer.
 
J

Joerg Jaeger

I agree with you 100%. Plus, if a person has any knowledge at all, it's
almost a lesson in futility calling any kind of help desk. ISP's (cable
or otherwise) have their own "crop of uneducated" manning the phones,
usually with a flow chart of some sort in front of them (computer or
hard-copy).
"First, let's reboot."
"OK, did that fix the problem?"
(10 minutes later and still no solution)
"I'm going to connect you with the next level of help." (Which usually
means someone who knows how to turn a PC on without asking someone else
where the power button is.)
(30 minutes and many tears of frustration later, you just give up.)
Then this was no joke in this tv show called 'the it growd'. And i was
laughing so hard.

My stepson had a helpdesk job with Comcast a few years back, and knows
virtually nothing about PCs. He sure knows his way around a phone
though, I'll give him that :) He was the one telling me about the
flowchart method of troubleshooting over the phone. The good thing about
it is that it gives a nice place to start; the bad thing is if someone
has already tried the first 12 steps before calling, it's a colossal
waste of time that could have been used to actually fix the problem.
Granted, not all desks are like that, but the majority seem to be (if
you can understand the thick accent to start with). I had to call
Charter the other day because there was no network available at all. Oh
joy, automated help desk.
"Ok, say what your problem is." (No internet)
"Ok, there seems to be an outage in your area. Our technicians are
working as hard and fast as they can to resolve the problem. Is there
anything else I can help you with today?" (no)
"OK, goodbye."
So far i was not in need to have to call a helpdesk. Since i use also
Linux, i will hear anyway that they not support that.
In most cases i can fix things myself or relay on a nice chatboard or
something.
In computers you learn thing step by step and most of the time by doing
something wrong.
But one thing is true, never change a running system. (except if the
internet is really off).

--
ACCESS DENIED...

/\_/\
____/ o o \
/~____ =ø= /
(______)__m_m) el cato
 
G

Gene Wirchenko

Yes, spelling words incorrectly generally causes one to spend an
inordinate amount of time trying to locate the desired answer.
Not knowing what word to spell does an even better job.

Many times, I have had the problem of not knowing what something
was called. This does make it rather hard to come up with search
terms.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Yes, spelling words incorrectly generally causes one to spend an inordinate
amount of time trying to locate the desired answer.
Although Google is pretty smart about seeing past my typos or errors.

Not perfect, but pretty good.

Still, frustration is easily achieved :)
 
S

Stan Brown

Many don't bother reading the app or OS included help.
Some of us do, but in vain. I have pretty much given up finding
*anything* in the "help" files in MS Office.

And if Windows 7 has detailed descriptions of the syntax and function
of the command-line commands, I've been unable to find it. Try
getting information on "net start", for instance. The result is
typical: several dozen links, none of which have any relevance
whatever to that command.

That said, the information is usually out there somewhere on the Web.
It behooves everyone to try at least a rudimentary Web search before
posting a question, but I have to admit there have been times I have
yielded to the impulse to post to a newsgroup without first doing my
own search.
 
B

Bob I

Although Google is pretty smart about seeing past my typos or errors.

Not perfect, but pretty good.

Still, frustration is easily achieved :)
I figure that if I can't get an answer, I'm looking at the problem
incorrectly, on the other hand, I see an amazing number of folks
expecting the question to be divined and the answer to be delivered by
the time they refresh the browser page.
 
V

VanguardLH

Stan said:
Some of us do, but in vain. I have pretty much given up finding
*anything* in the "help" files in MS Office.
I find lots there. If missing, I go to the MS KB site. If not there,
then I start searching online.
And if Windows 7 has detailed descriptions of the syntax and function
of the command-line commands, I've been unable to find it.
Are you asking about the DOS-mode commands, like chkdsk and dir? What
happens when you type "help" in a command console?

Try getting information on "net start", for instance.
net start /?

To get the name of the service (used as a parameter to 'net start') run:

sc query | more

(Those work in WinXP where I'm at now since that's my home PC.)

Then run 'netsh /?' and try to figure out how to use it.
That said, the information is usually out there somewhere on the Web.
It behooves everyone to try at least a rudimentary Web search before
posting a question, but I have to admit there have been times I have
yielded to the impulse to post to a newsgroup without first doing my
own search.
Sometimes it requires knowing the correct set of keywords to include in
a search to get a usable set of results. Alas, I wish Google would stop
discarding non-alphanumeric characters. When I search on "a->b.obj" for
some coding info, I'm not looking for every article that has "a", "b",
and "obj" somewhere in it.

What I find rude is someone that replies to a question with "do a Google
search" but doesn't bother providing the actual URL showing the criteria
that the respondent thinks provides a decent list of results. If you're
not willing to give an example search URL then don't bother replying
with some vague and useless comment about doing an online search. If
you're going to respond with "look over there" then point to where
you're talking about.
 
G

Gene Wirchenko

[snip]
I figure that if I can't get an answer, I'm looking at the problem
incorrectly, on the other hand, I see an amazing number of folks
expecting the question to be divined and the answer to be delivered by
the time they refresh the browser page.
Or everyone else may be looking at it wrong. In particular, they
may be missing a nuance that you are seeing. Mind you, you could be
wrong, too.

You might also be in front.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

I find more and more that answers to posted questions are readily
available in Windows Help and Support. This group should be the last
place to look for answers, not the first. Try Help and Support first,
then Google or Bing. You will likely get the best answers faster.
Many don't bother reading the app or OS included help. Many don't
bother looking in Microsoft's huge support knowledgebase, the vendor's
FAQ page for an app, or visit the app vendor's own forums to research
and then ask a more focused user community. Many don't bother to search
and read the newsgroups before posting. Instead they post knee-jerk
questions while omitting sufficient details for anyone else to begin
diagnosing their problem. Many never go to their public library to read
even one book on the app or OS. Because users can install an OS makes
them believe they have the skills to administer it. Rare few
investigate all the configuration options for a new app. And, as you
note, these same lazy users don't bother to Google or online search on
their topic. They're looking (hoping) for a quick fix without having to
expend any effort themself in finding it. They don't want to spend the
time or don't have the time to go look. Many posters don't even
consider that someone ELSE has to understand what they write and they
don't review their message before submitting it. If you suggest more
than one solution, expect them to focus on only one of them so you'll
have to repeat the others.

There is a new crop of uneducated that lack initiative every year.
It'll never end. In Usenet, you have a choice as to whom you help since
you volunteer your time here. At a help desk, you have to help all who
ask because that's your job.[/QUOTE]

My, you sound bitter! Yes, some questions here do seem particularly
badly expressed, and for those who try to help it's like pulling hen's
teeth getting details of what's wanted.

But I don't mind people asking here first, if the question is reasonably
well put. Searching - either the web or the internal help - can be
frustrating if you just happen to be using a word/phrase for whatever
you're looking for that isn't the one everyone else is using.

I would say that to my eyes the 7 help is a lot better at finding what
you're looking for than that in earlier Windows (well, I don't know
about Vista).

Replies to queries that say "go to help, type this, and it's the second
hit", or even something similar with Google etc., are good; replies
that just say "use help" or "Google" give the impression that the person
typing them isn't very helpful and thinks themselves superior.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Oh, stick it up your nose." "Yes, which is precisely the sort of thing we need
to know, I mean, do people want fire that can be fitted nasally?" (s1, fit
six.)
 
G

Gordon

Many don't bother reading the app or OS included help. Many don't
bother looking in Microsoft's huge support knowledgebase, the vendor's
FAQ page for an app, or visit the app vendor's own forums to research
and then ask a more focused user community. Many don't bother to search
and read the newsgroups before posting. Instead they post knee-jerk
questions while omitting sufficient details for anyone else to begin
diagnosing their problem. Many never go to their public library to read
even one book on the app or OS. Because users can install an OS makes
them believe they have the skills to administer it. Rare few
investigate all the configuration options for a new app. And, as you
note, these same lazy users don't bother to Google or online search on
their topic. They're looking (hoping) for a quick fix without having to
expend any effort themself in finding it. They don't want to spend the
time or don't have the time to go look. Many posters don't even
consider that someone ELSE has to understand what they write and they
don't review their message before submitting it. If you suggest more
than one solution, expect them to focus on only one of them so you'll
have to repeat the others.

There is a new crop of uneducated that lack initiative every year.
It'll never end. In Usenet, you have a choice as to whom you help since
you volunteer your time here. At a help desk, you have to help all who
ask because that's your job.
My, you sound bitter! Yes, some questions here do seem particularly
badly expressed, and for those who try to help it's like pulling hen's
teeth getting details of what's wanted.

But I don't mind people asking here first, if the question is reasonably
well put. Searching - either the web or the internal help - can be
frustrating if you just happen to be using a word/phrase for whatever
you're looking for that isn't the one everyone else is using.

I would say that to my eyes the 7 help is a lot better at finding what
you're looking for than that in earlier Windows (well, I don't know
about Vista).

Replies to queries that say "go to help, type this, and it's the second
hit", or even something similar with Google etc., are good; replies that
just say "use help" or "Google" give the impression that the person
typing them isn't very helpful and thinks themselves superior.[/QUOTE]

I don't know whether you remember when Office 2007 was released and
there were literally TENS of THOUSANDS of posts, all the same, asking
why their OE spellcheck had stopped.
That's what put many people off I think, in that someone would post this
question, when there were at least TWO posts exactly the same, on the
page they were looking at! They didn't even bother to read the first
PAGE, never mind anything else. We regulars in the (then) MS Newsgroups
got really really p*ssed off with it....
 
K

Ken Springer

Searching - either the web or the internal help - can be
frustrating if you just happen to be using a word/phrase for whatever
you're looking for that isn't the one everyone else is using.
Thank you!!!!! You have no idea how many times I've tried to tell
people this, and all I get is a digital blank stare.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 10.0.2
Thunderbird 10.0.2
LibreOffice 3.5.0 rc3
 
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K

Ken Springer

But...
Most newbies and some oldies (like myself) simply do not know the
correct terminolgy to search for.
And this is where I maintain that a well written manual, with lots of
images, is far superior.

You look for the relevant area in the manual, and by checking the
images, you've got a good shot of identifying an image that solves
you're problem, plus you learn that all this time, you've been calling
the problem a bucket, when you should have been calling it a pail.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 10.0.2
Thunderbird 10.0.2
LibreOffice 3.5.0 rc3
 

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