Creating an SSD Replacement


P

Paul

Gene said:
Suggestion: just accept that it works.
The log info collected, seems to be coming from
something Microsoft. So the details of the Macrium
side of it, are safe. I found another log file in
%temp%, if you're ever looking for it. There is no
additional info to go on, to understand what it's doing,
or which software is doing it.

Paul
 
Ad

Advertisements

T

Timothy Daniels

Juan Wei said:
Paul has written:

Did you miss "If I try to 'clone', it does not recognize the SSD."? :)

However, I did solve that problem.
OK, Show-And-Tell time - what was the cause of the problem?

*TimDaniels*
 
P

Paul

Juan said:
Char Jackson has written on 8/22/2013 9:36 PM:

Interesting. The clone I was finally able to do "copied" the entire
partition and not just the data.
Clone programs do that, if they run into a "foreign" file system.
If a cloning program is mainly Windows based, and it runs
into EXT2 or FreeBSD partitions, the entire partition for the
foreign ones, is copied sector by sector. They can't be "smart" about
all partition types, because there are too many of them.

Paul
 
P

Paul

Juan said:
Timothy Daniels has written on 8/22/2013 11:47 PM:

Did you clone:

1) the entire drive,
2) just the "C:" partition, or
3) the C: and the (for me) 100MB SYSTEM RESERVED partition?
What you do, depends a lot on the time and effort you want
to put into it.

If it all fits on the SSD, then just clone it and forget about it.

*******

If it doesn't all fit, you need to understand what each partition
is for, before unticking it and not copying it. Perhaps it removes
your ability to "restore to factory state" while using the SSD
as your storage solution.

If you have C: and SYSTEM RESERVED present, the easy answer
is to copy both of them. That improves the odds it is going to
boot, without needing to be repaired.

*******

You could try copying just C:, then do a Repair Install using
a matching DVD disc with the SSD installed in the laptop, but
that's a lot of trouble to go to. Later, discard Windows.old
using Disk Cleanup. I keep a Win7 SP1 DVD here, downloaded
from digitalriver.com, for that very purpose (repair install).
I would use the license key off the COA, when using that disc.
That's if you cannot convince the repair function in Windows 7,
to make the standalone C: bootable.

Paul
 
T

Timothy Daniels

Juan Wei said:
Timothy Daniels has written on 8/22/2013 11:47 PM:

Did you clone:

1) the entire drive,
2) just the "C:" partition, or
3) the C: and the (for me) 100MB SYSTEM RESERVED partition?
OK, Juan, this is the first mention of a 100MB System partition.
The 100MB System partition is created in a standard Win7/8
installation process, and that small partition contains the boot files
for loading and launching the OS which may be contained in another
partition. If you create the partitions yourself, you're free to designate
the OS's partition as the System partition. If you try to clone both the
100MB System partition and the OS's partition onto an SSD, Macrium
Reflect may have balked because of the wrong partition offset for the
OS's partition. Is that what you were trying to do?

*TimDaniels*
 
T

Timothy Daniels

"Juan Wei" mentioned:
Paul has written:

Did you miss "If I try to 'clone', it does not recognize the SSD."? :)

However, I did solve that problem.

Juan, there's an implicit agreement when one posts on Usenet:
Users help each other - which includes sharing the information that
one learns or discovers with others, be they within the immediate
newsgroup or among the searchers of the Google archives sometimes
years later. THE WORST thing to do is to post a question and get
informed replies from dozens of users trying to help and to solve the
problem for you and others, and then to say, "Oh, never mind. I found
the answer", and then just go away without sharing the answer. That
wastes everyone's time, including that of people reading the thread
later in the Google archives who are struggling with the same problem.
So, to be explicit, saying "However, I did solve that problem" and not
to elaborate is to waste everyone's time and to not keep your implicit
agreement.

*TimDaniels*
 
Ad

Advertisements

J

Juan Wei

Juan Wei has written on 8/23/2013 12:40 PM:
Paul has written on 8/22/2013 7:45 PM:

Did you miss "If I try to 'clone', it does not recognize the SSD."? :)

However, I did solve that problem.
The SSD did not have a volume on it.
 
J

Juan Wei

Timothy Daniels has written on 8/24/2013 2:13 AM:
OK, Juan, this is the first mention of a 100MB System partition.
The 100MB System partition is created in a standard Win7/8
installation process, and that small partition contains the boot files
for loading and launching the OS which may be contained in another
partition.
Are you suggesting that if I just clone the C: partition, the SSD will
not be bootable?
 
T

Timothy Daniels

"Juan Wei" slowly wakes up:
Timothy Daniels has written on 8/24/2013 2:13 AM:

Are you suggesting that if I just clone the C: partition, the SSD will
not be bootable?
Yes. If your system uses a 100MB "System Reserved" partition,
the clue being that the partition is marked "active", the files in that
partition load the OS residing in the much larger partition which the
running Windows OS calls "C:". The contents of the large partition
do not have the necessary boot loader and boot menu among them,
and even if they were there, they wouldn't be called by the MBR because
that partition is not marked "active". If you just cloned the large partition
to the SSD, you will have to provide those files by running one or more
of the repair utilities in the Repair Computer section of the installation
DVD. The ones you want are the utilities which will repair the boot sector.

*TimDaniels*
 
T

Timothy Daniels

"Juan Wei" starts to 'fess up:
Juan Wei has written on 8/23/2013 12:40 PM:

The SSD did not have a volume on it.
And you solved that by using Windows' Disk Management to
define a partition on the SSD, right? And then you were able to
clone the large OS partition (the one that the resident OS calls
"C:") to the newly formed partition on the SSD, right? But you
didn't clone the 100MB partition to the SSD, right? And now
the OS on the SSD doesn't boot, right? And the partition on the
SSD is still not marked "active", right? C'mon, you gotta tell us
all these things if you want an intelligent answer.

*TimDaniels*
 
Ad

Advertisements

J

Juan Wei

Timothy Daniels has written on 8/24/2013 5:31 PM:
"Juan Wei" slowly wakes up:

Yes. If your system uses a 100MB "System Reserved" partition,
the clue being that the partition is marked "active", the files in that
partition load the OS residing in the much larger partition which the
running Windows OS calls "C:". The contents of the large partition
do not have the necessary boot loader and boot menu among them,
and even if they were there, they wouldn't be called by the MBR because
that partition is not marked "active". If you just cloned the large partition
to the SSD, you will have to provide those files by running one or more
of the repair utilities in the Repair Computer section of the installation
DVD. The ones you want are the utilities which will repair the boot sector.
Interesting. I just tried booting from the SSD (currently M:) and it
booted. Do you think it somehow referred to the internal boot HD to get
the bootloader and boot menu?
 
J

Juan Wei

Timothy Daniels has written on 8/24/2013 5:39 PM:
"Juan Wei" starts to 'fess up:

And you solved that by using Windows' Disk Management to
define a partition on the SSD, right?
True.

And then you were able to
clone the large OS partition (the one that the resident OS calls
"C:") to the newly formed partition on the SSD, right?
True.

But you didn't clone the 100MB partition to the SSD, right?
True.

And now the OS on the SSD doesn't boot, right?
Well, I restarted the computer and got a boot menu. I then selected the
SSD and it did boot.
And the partition on the SSD is still not marked "active", right?
True.

C'mon, you gotta tell us all these things if you want an intelligent answer.
I would certainly volunteer all those things if I had enough knowledge
to recognize them without having them pointed out to me. :)

Thanks.
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

"Juan Wei" mentioned:

Juan, there's an implicit agreement when one posts on Usenet:
Users help each other - which includes sharing the information that
one learns or discovers with others, be they within the immediate
newsgroup or among the searchers of the Google archives sometimes
years later. THE WORST thing to do is to post a question and get
informed replies from dozens of users trying to help and to solve the
problem for you and others, and then to say, "Oh, never mind. I found
the answer", and then just go away without sharing the answer. That
wastes everyone's time, including that of people reading the thread
later in the Google archives who are struggling with the same problem.
So, to be explicit, saying "However, I did solve that problem" and not
to elaborate is to waste everyone's time and to not keep your implicit
agreement.

*TimDaniels*
+1

Clearly and gently put. Thanks.
 
B

BobbyM

+1

Clearly and gently put. Thanks.
Judging from Juan's last post, I don't know that the problem has been
solved. It seems that he booted to the SSD drive but the original drive
is still connected. I don't think he'll know for sure that it works
until the original source drive is disconnected.
 
P

Paul

s|b said:
I did find an example of a tool, that doesn't support
shrinking on a clone. And the picture that accompanies
this page, shows them just copying the busy sectors.

http://www.runtime.org/driveimage-xml.htm

A little more testing on Macrium, shows they have written
something to do the shrinking, and the characteristics
are quite different. The mystery, is how they do it
(without screwing it up). This isn't an operation
you find every day on a computer.

The Macrium tool, does (256) 4K reads, then blasts out
a 1MB write in one shot. Which doesn't match the driveimage-xml
picture at all. Maybe the reason it looks like that, is my
sample clone had an almost-full partition, so very few
blocks were empty.

What it implies, is the potential of doing ordinary file
copies, with only one file table update (which would
be faster and quieter, if it was a common option).

It doesn't seem to be Microsoft software doing the shrink,
as by using vsstrace, the VSS subsystem is quiet while
Macrium is doing the copy n' shrink. The shadow copy is
released at the end, like you'd expect.

So how do they figure out where to put stuff ? The
pattern I see, it almost looks like they compute what
the $MFT should look like, rather than build it by
doing file copies and having a file system do it.

Many other things we see done to file systems, are
done "bit-by-bit". When your disk is defragmented,
it's done one file at a time, and the $MFT updated
after each one. If you copy files, it is done one
at a time. Software almost never "globs together"
operations in one shot. The shadow copy is certainly
safe to play with, so the developers aren't taking
a risk with user data on the source end. Like, if
the power goes off. They can always freeze another
shadow copy and try again. So the opportunity is
certainly present.

I was expecting most of these one-off backup companies
(that produce a "free utility" based on VSS), they
were doing it because it was easy to write. The
Macrium software seems to have value-added.

Paul
 
Ad

Advertisements

P

Paul

Juan said:
Timothy Daniels has written on 8/24/2013 5:31 PM:

Interesting. I just tried booting from the SSD (currently M:) and it
booted. Do you think it somehow referred to the internal boot HD to get
the bootloader and boot menu?
Windows 7 can be installed two ways.

It can be installed on two partitions. My laptop came that way,
with C: and SYSTEM RESERVED (100MB). And SYSTEM RESERVED has the
boot files.

But Windows 7 can also be installed with only C: and no SYSTEM RESERVED.
In that case, the 100MB of boot files are just poured into C:.

In the latter case, the boot flag would need to be set on the C: partition.
And a cloning utility will dutifully copy the boot flag from the source
disk to the destination disk.

And that could be why it worked. You started with a one-partition
install, cloned it over, and all necessary info was present.

If you have C: and SYSTEM RESERVED on the source, and you only
copy C: , two things would be broken. No boot files. No boot flag.
And the evidence is, the Windows 7 repair can't always seem to
fix that.

Paul
 
J

Juan Wei

BobbyM has written on 8/24/2013 6:44 PM:
Judging from Juan's last post, I don't know that the problem has been
solved. It seems that he booted to the SSD drive but the original drive
is still connected. I don't think he'll know for sure that it works
until the original source drive is disconnected.
I believe you. :)

Do I need to change the SSD's letter before I disconnect the original
source drive?
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

Judging from Juan's last post, I don't know that the problem has been
solved. It seems that he booted to the SSD drive but the original drive
is still connected. I don't think he'll know for sure that it works
until the original source drive is disconnected.
But your remark has nothing to do with my post that you replied to...

I was complimenting Timothy Daniels for an intelligent and gentle
discussion of why it is good for a poster to let the newsgroup know how
he solved a problem that he got help on.
 
Ad

Advertisements

B

BobbyM

BobbyM has written on 8/24/2013 6:44 PM:

I believe you. :)

Do I need to change the SSD's letter before I disconnect the original
source drive?
No; if you actually cloned the drive, it will be lettered the same as
the original drive was. The cloned drive is meant to either replace the
original drive or to serve as a backup to that drive; both should not
remain connected.
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top