card

G

gufus

Hello, Paul!

6200 AGP - slightly less DC power needed than 7600GT
With the 6200 AGP, what would be a good BIOS setting for Aperture size?

AGP Aperture Size
• 4 MB
• 8 MB
• 16 MB
• 32 MB
• 64 MB (default)
• 128 MB
• 256 MB
Amount of system memory available for direct access by
the graphics device.

BTY, I pluged the 6200 into my PC, I'm just running *burnintest* on it right
now. http://www.passmark.com/
--
-gufus
Thou Shalt NOT excessively annoy others or
allow Thyself to become excessively annoyed

Message-ID: [email protected] Sent at 16:12
 
G

gufus

Hello, Paul!

6200 AGP - slightly less DC power needed than 7600GT
With the 6200 AGP, what would be a good BIOS setting for Aperture size?

AGP Aperture Size
• 4 MB
• 8 MB
• 16 MB
• 32 MB
• 64 MB (default)
• 128 MB
• 256 MB
Amount of system memory available for direct access by
the graphics device.

BTY, I pluged the 6200 into my PC, I'm just running *burnintest* on it right
now. http://www.passmark.com/
--
-gufus
Thou Shalt NOT excessively annoy others or
allow Thyself to become excessively annoyed

Message-ID: [email protected] Sent at 16:12
 
P

Paul

gufus said:
Hello, Paul!



With the 6200 AGP, what would be a good BIOS setting for Aperture size?

AGP Aperture Size
• 4 MB
• 8 MB
• 16 MB
• 32 MB
• 64 MB (default)
• 128 MB
• 256 MB
Amount of system memory available for direct access by
the graphics device.

BTY, I pluged the 6200 into my PC, I'm just running *burnintest* on it right
now. http://www.passmark.com/
Aperture "adds" to the memory the card can use. If it has 512MB on board,
setting the Aperture to 64MB, would give 576MB total under the most
stressful (gaming) conditions. The aperture gives the card a means of
accessing system memory, but the memory is allocated on demand. It isn't
"wasted".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Address_Remapping_Table

Considering the size of the memory onboard the card itself, I'd just leave
it at the default. I stopped worrying about the aperture setting, about
five years ago, because other than for stability issues, it's no longer
worth worrying about. Modern cards have gobs of memory already.

If you're bored, you can get a 3D benchmark, and run it after changing
the aperture setting in the BIOS each time. On some older setups,
there were cases where one particular aperture value, seemed to slow
down the game benchmark. I haven't seen anyone test for that kind of
thing, for a long time. It also wasn't possible to explain where the
glitch came from. It didn't make sense.

Paul
 
P

Paul

gufus said:
Hello, Paul!



'k

The 6200 did ok.. (I guess) :eek:

http://www.gypsy-designs.com/log.htm
What we don't know, is exactly how many problems the PassMark software has.

http://www.passmark.com/support/burnintest/problems_during_testing.htm#failed_windows_call

I presume there are going to be parts of the GPU local memory, that can't be
tested. The 2D test, should be using the frame buffer area, and looking for
render errors. If your screensaver cut in while it was running, would that
affect the results ? Do they use an offscreen bitmap for testing ? There
are plenty of questions that could be asked. Perhaps you could contact
their support, and ask them what percentage of the time, that a failure
in the BurnIn, is an actual failure.

http://www.passmark.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-262.html

If I was designing a test, I'd want exclusive access to the hardware.
Sorta like a memtest86+ test floppy, only with some GPU testing code to run on
it. That would be pretty hard to write, without driver support and
all the other trappings of an OS. And the amount of coverage you'd
get by using VESA features, would be minimal.

At the video card factory, there should be "memory BIST" for testing this.
I'm not aware of any test code, to just check the BIST (built in self test)
results. When we designed chips at work, you could test each memory block
internally with BIST, and there would be a bit in a register returning
the test results. BIST is nice, because it runs at hardware speed, and the
test pattern is applied via a test collar around the memory array. It can be
an "at-speed" test. Whether NVidia/ATI use that, and include the
GPU local memory in a BIST, would be a good question. Such schemes can save
a little time, because the "test software" on the computer has virtually
nothing to do except wait for the results to come back. The bit says
"pass" or "fail", rather than telling you "12 errors in the last 15 minutes".
At the factory, a "fail" would mean changing out the memory chips, or
running some other kind of diagnostic (JTAG scan or whatever).

On some video cards, you can tune the GPU core voltage or the GPU memory
operating voltage, but I don't know whether a 6200 would support that.
Some of the high end cards, have fairly fine adjustments for GPU core
voltage. I also can't tell you the name of any utilities, that allow
adjusting the voltage.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/extreme_5.html

One thing I noticed here, is I have two fanless FX5200 cards, and
one card appears to get errors when 3D gaming, which can be cured
by pointing a fan at the card. Your burnin results say there
are no errors in 3D, and I would have expected if the card gets
hot during the 3D test, that is when a memory error would show up.
Things should run cooler during a 2D test. You can see in that
Xbitlabs article, that the GPU Core voltage can be adjusted
by the driver, when the clocks are ramped.

Paul
 
G

gufus

Hello, Paul!

If I was designing a test, I'd want exclusive access to the hardware.
Vcool, looks like you could. :)

Say, quick question.

Can I use ECC RAM with my mother board?

QUOTE:
Memory Types ¦ DDR400 SDRAM Memory (when used with Intel®
¦ Non-ECC RAM (ECC memory will run in non-ECC mode)

Iwas looking at:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2-x-2gb-4gb-...192?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item2eb2c75ba8

--
-gufus
Thou Shalt NOT excessively annoy others or
allow Thyself to become excessively annoyed

Message-ID: [email protected] Sent at 14:53
 
P

Paul

gufus said:
Hello, Paul!



Vcool, looks like you could. :)

Say, quick question.

Can I use ECC RAM with my mother board?

QUOTE:
Memory Types ¦ DDR400 SDRAM Memory (when used with Intel®
¦ Non-ECC RAM (ECC memory will run in non-ECC mode)

Iwas looking at:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2-x-2gb-4gb-...192?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item2eb2c75ba8
From the D865GBF manual I have on disk here.

"Support for:
* Unbuffered, non-registered DIMMs
* Serial Presence Detect (SPD) memory only
* Support for Suspend to RAM (STR), S3 ACPI state
* Non-ECC DDR (ECC memory will run in non-ECC mode) <-----
* 2.5 V memory

That means you could buy an ECC DIMM, but it wouldn't
do you any good.

There are three flavors of RAM available here:

1) Unbuffered with no ECC (perhaps eight chips per side)
2) Unbuffered with ECC (perhaps nine chips per side)
3) Registered with ECC (some memory chips per side plus
PLL and address register chips in the center
which are a different size than the memory chips))

Looking at the Ebay advert you quote above, that DIMM in
the picture has PLL and address register chips, making it
(3) "Registered with ECC". There are way more than nine chips
per side, and if I could see it clearly, I'd count to eighteen
chips per side. And only a registered DIMM can drive a load like
that - the small chips in the center of the DIMM, function as
a buffer for the DIMM, eliminating the heavy address load from
the motherboard memory bus. Such a memory DIMM, belongs in
a server.

And to boot, the motherboard you own, and it's chipset, doesn't
support more than 1GB per slot. So even if you found some 2GB
unbuffered without ECC DIMMs, they still wouldn't be fully useful
and only 1GB would be detected. Half of the DIMM would be ignored.

In the Crucial list for your motherboard, the biggest kit offered
is 2x1GB unbuffered DIMMs. 1GB per slot.

http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.aspx?model=D865GBF&Cat=RAM

For more info on the 865 Northbridge and memory configs, try this doc.
This doc leaves a lot to be desired, but it'll give you some
hints about your motherboard and setup. Other than that, stick
with the Intel tech doc which functions as a user manual for
the motherboard, available from the Intel site.

http://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/applnots/25303601.pdf

Paul
 
G

gufus

Hello, Paul!

That means you could buy an ECC DIMM, but it wouldn't
do you any good.
That's what I thought. Non-ECC DDR (ECC memory will run in non-ECC mode)
And to boot, the motherboard you own, and it's chipset, doesn't
support more than 1GB per slot. So even if you found some 2GB
This I did not know.
In the Crucial list for your motherboard, the biggest kit offered
is 2x1GB unbuffered DIMMs. 1GB per slot.

http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.aspx?model=D865GBF&Cat=RAM
DDR400 would also work, this is DDR333
with the Intel tech doc which functions as a user manual for
the motherboard, available from the Intel site.

http://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/applnots/25303601.pdf
Thanks. all I have is..

http://www.gypsy-designs.com/info.pdf
http://www.gypsy-designs.com/english.pdf


--
-gufus
Thou Shalt NOT excessively annoy others or
allow Thyself to become excessively annoyed

Message-ID: [email protected] Sent at 13:39
 
P

Paul

gufus said:
Hello, Paul!



That's what I thought. Non-ECC DDR (ECC memory will run in non-ECC mode)


This I did not know.


DDR400 would also work, this is DDR333


Thanks. all I have is..

http://www.gypsy-designs.com/info.pdf
http://www.gypsy-designs.com/english.pdf
It's funny that Crucial recommends the PC2700 over the PC3200. That's silly.
The price is the same for both products.

The intel.com search engine is pretty broken now. I found this easily,
using an external search engine. 1,196,111 bytes . This is the kind of
manual I use, for researching Intel motherboard questions.

http://download.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/d865glc/BFLC_English.pdf

If I wanted to check max memory size, I could also get the chipset datasheet.

http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/datashts/252514.htm

http://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/datashts/25251405.pdf

Page 156 Table 25

"184 pin DDR DIMMs ... 512/1024 MB"

The 1024MB is the largest listed DIMM type, using 512Mbit chips.
If a larger chip density was available (like a 1024Mbit one),
then chances are only half the DIMM would be detected.

Intel generally doesn't go back and edit the documents (and
re-release them), if the DIMM support situation changes. As
one example, the 440BX ended up supporting one size larger than
is in the docs. Owners know this, but Intel never updated their
documentation as confirmation.

Paul
 
G

gufus

Hello, Paul!

It's funny that Crucial recommends the PC2700 over the PC3200. That's
silly. The price is the same for both products.
I was able to find some DDR400 1 Gig sticks. Got them NEW (DDR400 is
discounted now) pretty cheep. I can only use 4gb of memory on my W7 32bit OS
anyways, W7 32bit at BEST uses only 3.5gb anyhoo. Thanks again for all the
help.

Thanks again.


--
-gufus
Thou Shalt NOT excessively annoy others or
allow Thyself to become excessively annoyed

Message-ID: [email protected] Sent at 16:00
 
G

gufus

Hello, Paul!

What we don't know, is exactly how many problems the PassMark software
has.
Say question.

How do I overclock a card?

--
-gufus
Thou Shalt NOT excessively annoy others or
allow Thyself to become excessively annoyed

Message-ID: [email protected] Sent at 16:50
 
P

Paul

gufus said:
Hello, Paul!



Say question.

How do I overclock a card?
Well, look around until you find a utility.

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=173235

Words of warning:

1) Fan speed. My Nvidia card uses software control for fan speed.
There have been driver instances, that had a defect in that feature.
Use GPU-Z to monitor the video card temps, so you know if you're in
trouble or not. If the fan stops spinning, stuff can melt.

2) Overclocking to any significant extent, requires both voltage changes
and frequency changes. The regulators on the video card (may be two of
them), may have VID codes that allow programming the voltage. The utility
you use (whatever it happens to be), should be showing such adjustments,
before you can make progress. If you were stuck at default core voltage
(say 1.0500 volts or whatever), maybe only a relatively small overclock
would be possible.

I don't overclock video cards here, so you're on your own. I have
done a little CPU overclocking. For video cards, if your card stinks,
it will still stink once you overclock it. Usually, you're looking
for a massive improvement, that overclocking just can't give you.
You can't expect a $100 card to work like a $500 card, with a 30% overclock.
Ain't gonna happen.

HTH,
Paul
 
G

gufus

Hello, Paul!

for a massive improvement, that overclocking just can't give you.
You can't expect a $100 card to work like a $500 card, with a 30%
overclock. Ain't gonna happen.
'k

Say.. another question <grin>

Is it bad to mix RAM brands?

In this case, Kingston and Crucial, the timings are same too... CL3

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/CRUCIAL-CT2K...464?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item45fa0fc738


http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KINGSTON-1X1...030?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item53e5efd66e

--
-gufus
Thou Shalt NOT excessively annoy others or
allow Thyself to become excessively annoyed

Message-ID: [email protected] Sent at 13:08
 
P

Paul

gufus said:
Hello, Paul!



'k

Say.. another question <grin>

Is it bad to mix RAM brands?

In this case, Kingston and Crucial, the timings are same too... CL3

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/CRUCIAL-CT2K...464?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item45fa0fc738


http://www.ebay.ca/itm/KINGSTON-1X1...030?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item53e5efd66e
The first one is $73.99 on the Crucial site. And you don't have
to use PayPal to pay for it. The RAM is PC3200 CAS3. You never know,
you might even be able to do better than that price, if you shop
around. Ebay doesn't always have the best prices.

http://www.crucial.com/store/partspecs.aspx?IMODULE=CT2KIT12864Z40B

The second one is a single stick at 1GB. Kingston provides nice PDF
datasheets (which on occasion, they've been known to violate, but
for DDR memory, this should still be accurate). This one is PC3200
CAS3 as well.

http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KVR400X64C3A_1G.pdf

There are only a few motherboards, that go to insane lengths
when doing matching checks. Some early S939 motherboards did that
(tending to "ignore" the second set of DIMMs), but that was fixed
by a BIOS update.

Regular motherboards, the BIOS selects the lowest common denominator.
If one DIMM was CAS2 and the other CAS3, then the BIOS would select CAS3
(as the fast DIMM can be run slower with no problem). Same with
mixing DDR400 with DDR333, they'd end up at DDR333. And when you run
four DIMMS, the BIOS can also do load compensation - even if you bought
DDR400 DIMMs, the BIOS might still use DDR333 as a setting, due to the
level of bus loading present. In such cases, you have to raise the clock
manually yourself, and test. They select the DDR333 setting, to guarantee
the RAM will run right. But you as the user, can tune for slightly
better performance yourself.

When the DIMMs have different rows, columns, banks, ranks (logical dimensions),
that can affect whether dual channel or some flavor of single channel
mode is used, or even some mixture of the two might result.
The motherboard always runs in that case, but the memory bandwidth
might suffer a little bit. For example, if you buy two single 1GB DIMMs,
one had eight chips (all on one side), the other has sixteen chips (
eight per side, double sided), those modules don't match in logical
dimension. Chipsets like Intel with Flex Memory, don't care, as they
run each DIMM independent when it comes to logical dimension. Some
other motherboards, they run two DIMMs as if they were a 128 bit wide
"super-DIMM", and in that case, a failure to match logical dimension
results in the pair of DIMMs being ignored (or perhaps run in virtual
single channel mode, and accessed 64 bits at a time).

In summary, with respect to the previous paragraph, how it works
is a function of your chipset or processor type. Early S939 for example,
could ignore a mismatched pair of DIMMs. Later, Rev.E processors or higher,
had the option of running single channel modes where the motherboard
would work no matter how badly you bungled the memory purchases.

Considering you could buy the Crucial kit for $73.99, while the Kingston is
$65 for a single stick, I would think for another nine bucks, you could
buy two Crucial kits, and install completely matched RAM (4x1GB). Then
the DIMM already in the computer, can be stored in a drawer for a rainy day.
You don't have to immediately sell it off.

So for the most part, you can mix RAM any way you want and the motherboard
is likely to still boot. But the choices you make, can affect the
performance a bit (not so you'd notice - you need a stopwatch to
detect the difference).

Paul
 
G

gufus

Hello, Paul!

mixing DDR400 with DDR333, they'd end up at DDR333. And when you run
I remember reading that stoneware. (downshifting or something)
So for the most part, you can mix RAM any way you want and the motherboard
is likely to still boot. But the choices you make, can affect the
performance a bit (not so you'd notice - you need a stopwatch to
detect the difference).
That's what I thought, some people on the web say different tho.... :%

--
-gufus
Thou Shalt NOT excessively annoy others or
allow Thyself to become excessively annoyed

Message-ID: [email protected] Sent at 15:36
 
P

Paul

gufus said:
Hello, Paul!



I remember reading that stoneware. (downshifting or something)


That's what I thought, some people on the web say different tho.... :%
There are some people on enthusiast web sites, who've earned the right
to say that, because they've tested extensive numbers of modules,
and noticed problems with a particular type of RAM. But if the RAM
is otherwise good, you should be able to mix it with other good
RAM types.

There are some motherboards with Nvidia chipsets, where the owners
have nothing but misery for their troubles. They may end up trying
two or three different brands, hoping to get the thing running
at the rated speed without crashing. (You can read about this
over on vip.asus.com motherboard forums, where each motherboard
has its own forum.) Other brands of chipsets can still have issues,
but perhaps only with one brand of RAM.

I have a couple DDR motherboards, and one required LL (low
latency or CAS2 modules) or it would not behave. The other
one, eats anything you feed it (CAS2, CAS3, mixed sticks etc).

Generally speaking, if you have no experience with your new
motherboard, you find a review on Newegg, on Amazon, or on
the motherboard manufacturer forums (vip.asus.com, perhaps
forums.nvidia.com in the case of some flaky NVidia chipsets).
You can get an "early warning" that way, that you're in for
a fight. On the motherboard where I needed the LL RAM, I had
some advance warning, so it wasn't a complete surprise when
I had trouble. I could run up to about DDR370, and anything
higher than that had errors. Using the workaround, buying the
CAS2 RAM, I could do over DDR400, but there really wasn't much
point pushing it, as it didn't really help at all. The processor
bus interface was the limiting factor on that board, and overclocking
the RAM wouldn't have got me much in the way of an improvement.

Paul
 
G

gufus

Hello, Paul!

- if you buy it, don't forget to plug in the power cable on
the end of
the video card.
Say.. connectors.

Is this a 4 pin standard connector?

http://www.gypsy-designs.com/22.jpg

I only have 1 (one) out of my power supply (floppy drive). I could use this
for a viedo card too Right?

Or get a connector?


http://www.ebay.ca/itm/4Pin-IDE-ATA...62?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0d5a8d46;
--
-gufus
Thou Shalt NOT excessively annoy others or
allow Thyself to become excessively annoyed

Message-ID: [email protected] Sent at 15:57
 
P

Paul

gufus said:
Hello, Paul!



Say.. connectors.

Is this a 4 pin standard connector?

http://www.gypsy-designs.com/22.jpg

I only have 1 (one) out of my power supply (floppy drive). I could use this
for a viedo card too Right?

Or get a connector?


http://www.ebay.ca/itm/4Pin-IDE-ATA...62?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0d5a8d46;
There are three kinds of connectors used on video cards.

1) Floppy connector
2) Molex 1x4 connector
3) PCI Express 2x3 or 2x4 connector

(Card using a floppy connector for aux power)

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/14-102-073-03.jpg

(Card using a 1x4 Molex)

http://compreviews.about.com/library/graphics/C98Pro128Card.jpg

(Card with both a 2x3 and a 2x4 PCI Express power connector on the end.
This needs two cables. Some power supplies, they have up to four cables
of this type.)

http://images.tweaktown.com/content/1/1/x1100_25.jpg.pagespeed.ic.9T4U8QDi2p.jpg

Some power supplies, have a splittable 2x4 PCI Express, which can be used as
either a 2x3 or as a 2x4.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/pcie6plus2.jpg

*******

When a power supply has a cable on it, there is a limit to how many
amps can be pulled through the cable safely. For this reason, you
can't "extend" a single cable from the power supply, to an infinite
number of loads. You need an estimate of the number of amperes
flowing, to figure out what cabling is safe. The Molex 1x4 is good
to perhaps 8 amps, but I try not to load it that heavily if I can help
it.

This cable, for example, converts two 1x4 cables coming from the ATX supply,
into a single PCI Express 2x3 connector. It would be an example of a
cable that isn't violating any rules.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/pcie6.jpg

Generally, it's better to get a power supply with the right
set of cables/connectors on it, rather than using an excessive number of
adapters. It's OK if you're running small loads, to use ones like this
"Y" shaped cable - I use these when powering extra fans for example. But
if there were heavy loads on each connector, using too many of these
in a row would be a mistake.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/12-198-025-S01?$S640W$

I've had one connector burn on me - but that happened because the
connector worked itself loose, and the extra ohms from the bad connection,
made for a hot spot. The connector pin was burned black in that case. When that
happens, you have to replace the connector on both ends (cable and video card).
Since I didn't have the right connector to fix the video card, I
soldered an extension cable to the end of the card instead. That
was my fix.

Paul
 

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