Where is it now?

[Paul]

On 5/22/13 5:04 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message <[email protected]>, Stan Brown
On Wed, 22 May 2013 13:08:20 -0400, richard wrote:
[]
Try partition wizard.
it does it all and even takes space from allocated drives if desired.
plus a lot more features windows DM never had.

And more than the great majority of people need. Windows 7's built-
in disk and partition management is fine for virtually everyone.

Does it still have the limitation earlier OS's ones had that there are
files it can't move, so if you want to drastically reduce the size of
the active partition you have to take several goes (and still may
not be
able)?

If it doesn't bother the user to do so, turn off System Restore and
Virtual Memory. That kills most if not all unmovable files. Shrink to
the desired size. Then turn on System Restore and Virtual Memory.

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/2672-partition-volume-shrink.html

That appears to be a hypothesis, rather than an answer.

The evidence is, it stops at exactly 50%. Something is located at the
50% mark, that cannot be moved.

Try it yourself, then report back. Take an NTFS partition,
use the Shrink option in Disk Management, and see if the menu stops
at the 50% mark. Note that, if you've been using Raxco PerfectDisk,
the stopping point will no longer be at the 50% mark. It gets moved.
That's because, someone else reported (when I was researching this
a while ago), that PerfectDisk can fix it. I used an eval. copy
of that software, and it did indeed work. To bad the Raxco defrag
graphical screen would not stay visible after a defrag run, so I
could identify what got moved. It immediately disappears when the run
is finished.

For example, $MFTMIRR is mentioned here. It is preferentially placed
at the 50% mark. But I think in fact, it can be moved without harm,
to some other location. It could be, that in fact MFTMIRR is the
thing that sticks at the 50% point. You could still run into an
"unmovable" file, but it might be further towards the origin.

http://serverfault.com/questions/16...on-of-mftmirr-to-allow-resizing-the-partition


If Shawn actually knew the answer, there'd be a recipe for how to move
the offending object.

And there's probably *some* defrag tool out there, that even without
running a defrag, you might be able to display graphically, the
location of the various bits of metadata ($MFT, $MFTMIRR, and
so on).

Sheesh, Paul, I would have thought you, of all posters here, would have
heard of this. <grin>

It works. I've done it a couple of times just for fun. Usually, I
just use EaseUS Partition Master Free. I've not had some of the issues
others seem to have had. I've no idea why.

And, I hate using Windows Disk Management. LOL

I posted that link because it was the first hit in my Google search that
listed it. Most hits are of the standard "you can only do 50%" variety.

But, since you are dubious, which is a good thing...

http://superuser.com/questions/88131/how-to-shrink-windows-7-boot-partition-with-unmovable-files


http://www.brandonchecketts.com/archives/how-to-shrink-a-partition-with-unmovable-files-in-windows-7


http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Windows...ssue-with-partitions-in-Windows-7/td-p/237317


http://bartmaes.wordpress.com/2010/...when-shrinking-your-c-partition-on-windows-7/


Similar instructions for Vista...
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/wind...ows-vistas-shrink-volume-inadequacy-problems/


What does all of this tell us? Windows is an extremely complicated
system. But there seems to be ways around the issue.

Kinda makes me wonder how Windows manages to work at all! LOL

In the systems I've done using Disk Management, the installs were new,
and/or things like IE were not used.

I did a fresh install of Windows 7 in a VM. Set the blank disk large
enough, so the installation would only occupy the bottom half. This
is what JKDefrag shows for file positioning.

http://imageshack.us/a/img811/6106/w7tmpfragmentation.gif

Following the instructions, to look in Event Viewer after attempting
to shrink, this is what is blocking at the moment.

Diagnostic details:
- The last unmovable file appears to be:
\System Volume Information\{ab59bee2-c38a-11e2-89db-0003ff781424}
{3808876b-c176-4e48-b7ae-04046e6cc752}::$DATA
- The last cluster of the file is: 0x813fff [ *8 = 0x409FFF8 sector ]
- Shrink potential target (LCN address): 0x1b883f
- The NTFS file flags are: ---AD
- Shrink phase: <analysis>

Now, this is what NFI.exe gives:

The whole partition is 0x7FC0000 sectors

(Things with a "$" in front, are invisible metadata files...)

$MFTMIRR is exactly half way out.

Master File Table Mirror ($MftMirr)
logical sectors 66977784-66977791 (0x3fdfff8-0x3fdffff)

$LOGFILE comes right after it.

Log File ($LogFile)
logical sectors 66977792-67108863 (0x3fe0000-0x3ffffff)

Pagefile is not a problem at all in this case. It's down low.
Hex address is six digits, not seven like the others.

\pagefile.sys
logical sectors 11189792-14334607 (0xaabe20-0xdaba8f)

And this is where I got tricked. The SVI files were stored
with 8.3 file names. I couldn't possibly have found these,
without reading the entire file line by line! And even then,
I wouldn't have noticed these names for what they are.

This is the one named in event viewer. It comes after LOGFILE.
320MB. The first one is the one named in Event Viewer. I think
this would require either disabling VSS or doing something
with System Restore, not sure exactly which.

\SYSTEM~1\{AB59B~1
logical sectors 67108864-67764223 (0x4000000-0x409ffff)

\SYSTEM~1\{38088~1
logical sectors 86048-86175 (0x15020-0x1509f) <--- down low

So in the fresh install I did, I see three things potentially
blocking. And pagefile isn't one of them. And this system
has no hiberfil, so that's not a problem either. You can
blame that on the install in this (crappy) VM environment.
No sleep option is offered. There is something wrong with
the ACPI details offered by the VM BIOS tables.

Anyway, that's another quick review on the topic. It's
now documented in Windows 7 SP1 help. There is an entry
in Event Viewer, for the next file blocking the shrink.
So now there is decent help, if you wanted to fight with
it yourself.

And Raxco can move all of that stuff. It just doesn't
move it far enough, and that requires multiple passes.
And Raxco PerfectDisk, does it without rebooting or anything.

Paul

 

[Ken Springer]

So in the fresh install I did, I see three things potentially
blocking. And pagefile isn't one of them. And this system
has no hiberfil, so that's not a problem either. You can
blame that on the install in this (crappy) VM environment.
No sleep option is offered. There is something wrong with
the ACPI details offered by the VM BIOS tables.


Anyway, that's another quick review on the topic. It's
now documented in Windows 7 SP1 help. There is an entry
in Event Viewer, for the next file blocking the shrink.
So now there is decent help, if you wanted to fight with
it yourself.

And Raxco can move all of that stuff. It just doesn't
move it far enough, and that requires multiple passes.
And Raxco PerfectDisk, does it without rebooting or anything.

Paul

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.3
Firefox 20.0
Thunderbird 17.0.5
LibreOffice 4.0.1.2

 

[Ken Springer]

Sorry for the blank message, all, sometimes you just hit the wrong key!
LOL

So in the fresh install I did, I see three things potentially
blocking. And pagefile isn't one of them. And this system
has no hiberfil, so that's not a problem either. You can
blame that on the install in this (crappy) VM environment.
No sleep option is offered. There is something wrong with
the ACPI details offered by the VM BIOS tables.

You're experience with a VM environment is why I don't use them for
playing with questions like this. LOL

Is pagefile.sys the green section in the middle of the defrag display?
I've not used that program, so I'm unfamiliar with its display modes.

Anyway, that's another quick review on the topic. It's
now documented in Windows 7 SP1 help. There is an entry
in Event Viewer, for the next file blocking the shrink.
So now there is decent help, if you wanted to fight with
it yourself.

Unless the user is like yourself, and wants to know those details, I
just don't understand why they simply don't use a partitioning program
to do it for them. Use a tool designed to do the job you want.

And Raxco can move all of that stuff. It just doesn't
move it far enough, and that requires multiple passes.
And Raxco PerfectDisk, does it without rebooting or anything.

Have you tried any of the other defragmenters to see if they move
everything? I think such a feature should be optional for the user.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.3
Firefox 20.0
Thunderbird 17.0.5
LibreOffice 4.0.1.2

 

[Paul]

Have you tried any of the other defragmenters to see if they move
everything? I think such a feature should be optional for the user.

Raxco was the one recommended at the time.

My main reason for testing it, is I couldn't believe you
could write a program that could move everything. That's
been a taboo for a long time.

And obviously, at least some of the partition managers
know how to do that as well. (I owned one commercial
partition manager, and it couldn't handle it, being
a bit too old.)

What was puzzling, is why Microsoft didn't know how to do it.
After all, they provide the API that everyone else uses.
(Others use it, for safety. At one time, they likely
wrote their own data movement code.)

Paul

 

[Ken Springer]

Raxco was the one recommended at the time.

My main reason for testing it, is I couldn't believe you
could write a program that could move everything. That's
been a taboo for a long time.

Logically, that taboo is hogwash to me, unless MS or OS writers simply
don't want to deal with any potential fallout.

Somewhere, either in RAM memory or in a file on the hard drive, there
has to be a record of what's where so the OS can access and use the
info. Move the info, update the record of where the info is, and you
should be home free.

To do otherwise, limits the power available from the system.

And obviously, at least some of the partition managers
know how to do that as well. (I owned one commercial
partition manager, and it couldn't handle it, being
a bit too old.)

As OS's evolve, adding new power, old stuff of all types will eventually
fail. It can't be any other way.

Just like buying a new car, and finding out the fancy sound system you
bought for your old car won't work.

What was puzzling, is why Microsoft didn't know how to do it.
After all, they provide the API that everyone else uses.
(Others use it, for safety. At one time, they likely
wrote their own data movement code.)

I'll bet they know how to do it. I go back to my comment above, maybe
MS just doesn't want to deal with possible fallout of doing it. And
it's their call. If someone calls and says Program X did this, and it's
not something that MS approves of, they can correctly wash their hands
of the problem and tell the user to talk to the programs creators.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.3
Firefox 20.0
Thunderbird 17.0.5
LibreOffice 4.0.1.2

 

[...winston]

Raxco was the one recommended at the time.

My main reason for testing it, is I couldn't believe you
could write a program that could move everything. That's
been a taboo for a long time.

And obviously, at least some of the partition managers
know how to do that as well. (I owned one commercial
partition manager, and it couldn't handle it, being
a bit too old.)

What was puzzling, is why Microsoft didn't know how to do it.
After all, they provide the API that everyone else uses.
(Others use it, for safety. At one time, they likely
wrote their own data movement code.)

Paul

Raxco Perfect Disk (as an example PD12.5 Pro) performs a variety of tasks.
By design and default System files are excluded from an online degfrag
necessitating defrag to occur offline or at boot time. PD12.5 Pro will
not lock out the system drive (offline mode) thus system files require a
boot time defrag.
PD also provides a 'Prep for Shrink' option which does not defrag thus
no optmization is performed during the *prep*. Using PD to shrink may
create additional fragmentation.

Defragging System Excluded Files
cf. PD12.5 Pro Help file
<qp>
The System Excluded Files section comes right after Most Fragmented
Files section in the Statistics tab. You can also jump right to this
section by choosing System Excluded Files option from the drop-down box
in the top-right corner of the Statistics tab.

By default, PerfectDisk’s list of excluded files typically fall into two
categories: system files that can only be defragmented offline or at
boot time (MFT, metadata, layout.ini, page and hibernation files, and so
forth), and the contents of the \System Volume Information directory
where Windows places shadow copies and restore points (in Windows 7,
Vista and Server 2008, these files may not be moved or defragmented at all).

Important: The files shown here are only the system excluded files. If a
user add any files to the Excluded Files list through the Drive
Properties interface, they will not appear here.

Use this section to view a list of Excluded files and to find out why
they are excluded. The list only relates to online defragmentation.
Files listed as metadata can be defragmented during an offline (boot
time) defragmentation pass. Pagefile.sys and hiberfil.sys can be
defragmented during an offline defragmentation pass.
</qp>

Shrinking A Volume
cf. PD12.5 Pro Help File - Prep for Shrink
<qp>
This special pass is not designed to optimize performance or perform any
form of optimization. This strategy is specifically designed to pack all
data to the beginning of a volume and may result in the creation of file
fragmentation as a result. The primary purpose of this pass is to prep a
partition or volume for the best possible resize or shrink. As such, it
should not be used unless it is the user's intent to resize or shrink a
volume or partition.
</qp>