Virtual Machine question


R

rfdjr1

I'm running Windows 7 Pro, 64bit.

I have a flight simulator program (not the Microsoft one) that I used to enjoy
on previous versions of Windows, up to and including XP. When I got this new
system two years ago, I installed the program, Falcon 4.0, but everytime I tried
to launch the program under Windows 7, it crashed, they system locked up and I
had to reboot.

I have virtual Windows XP system, which launches fines, but I can't find the
program I want to try and play with. In fact, I can't find most of the programs
that are actually installed on my computer while in the XP mode.

Do I have to install Falcon 4.0 while in the XP mode? Many of the programs I
have on the computer worked fine in XP, so why can't I even find them in the
virtual XP mode? Thanks.
 
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Y

Yousuf Khan

I'm running Windows 7 Pro, 64bit.

I have a flight simulator program (not the Microsoft one) that I used to enjoy
on previous versions of Windows, up to and including XP. When I got this new
system two years ago, I installed the program, Falcon 4.0, but everytime I tried
to launch the program under Windows 7, it crashed, they system locked up and I
had to reboot.

I have virtual Windows XP system, which launches fines, but I can't find the
program I want to try and play with. In fact, I can't find most of the programs
that are actually installed on my computer while in the XP mode.

Do I have to install Falcon 4.0 while in the XP mode? Many of the programs I
have on the computer worked fine in XP, so why can't I even find them in the
virtual XP mode? Thanks.
Yes, you would have to reinstall Falcon 4.0 separately in the XP Mode.
Think of the XP Mode as a separate machine within a machine. It even
attaches to the host machine through the Windows networking protocols,
rather than direct access to the disks, printers, etc.

Another thing to realize is that the XP Mode emulates a very basic SVGA
adapter, you won't have access to all of the DirectX functions that your
host computer's video card may have.

Yousuf Khan
 
P

Paul

I'm running Windows 7 Pro, 64bit.

I have a flight simulator program (not the Microsoft one) that I used to enjoy
on previous versions of Windows, up to and including XP. When I got this new
system two years ago, I installed the program, Falcon 4.0, but everytime I tried
to launch the program under Windows 7, it crashed, they system locked up and I
had to reboot.

I have virtual Windows XP system, which launches fines, but I can't find the
program I want to try and play with. In fact, I can't find most of the programs
that are actually installed on my computer while in the XP mode.

Do I have to install Falcon 4.0 while in the XP mode? Many of the programs I
have on the computer worked fine in XP, so why can't I even find them in the
virtual XP mode? Thanks.
WinXP mode would not be the best candidate for
DirectX 3D type games.

Windows Virtual PC, the engine of WinXP mode, has just about the
worst graphics support. And I don't think the Terminal Server
graphics path in the current version has changed that.

VirtualBox, as a host for a copy of WinXP, does have
tick boxes for graphics acceleration, but I've never
seen any reports as to how well it works or whether it
works at all. I think at the time I noticed the tick
boxes, they were marked as being "experimental".

Generally, I've given up on the notion of ever seeing good 3D
graphics in a Virtual Machine.

I have seen one case where they were successful. There was
a virtual PC software for the Macintosh, and that allows X86
code to run on the Macintosh CPU of the time. The emulation
was dog slow, because you can never really expect non-native
translation to be that fast (CPU clock divided by ten, at best).
Anyway, in that package, they added something special. They
allowed the guest OS to "tunnel" out to a 3DFX glide based
graphics card. (That's the kind of card, that you play 3D games with,
but it uses the "overlay method" and draws an image on top of the
2D graphics card output.) If you had a Windows game with GLide graphics,
it was allowed to directly access the 3DFX graphics card.
I was lucky, to own the card that did that, and got to test it.
It allowed the game I was playing to run at one frame per second :)
Why so slow ? It was the CPU emulation that was slower than
molasses in January. That's what made game play impossible. But
for once, the graphics hardware acceleration was a solved problem.
It's the CPU emulation that let that one down.

And that effort has not been matched - at least, I've never
heard anyone say they got good 3D from a modern virtual machine.

So maybe if you have deep pockets, or are determined to experience
good 3D in a virtual machine, some day you'll do it. I don't waste
time on that stuff any more (too many disappointments). Running native
is good enough for me. If I had a game that only ran in WinXP, well,
I'd keep a WinXP machine around to play it.

Paul
 
A

Andy Burns

Yousuf said:
the XP Mode emulates a very basic SVGA
adapter, you won't have access to all of the DirectX functions that your
host computer's video card may have.
Might do better to try VirtualBox, it can present accelerated graphics
to the VM.
 
T

TheGunslinger

I'm running Windows 7 Pro, 64bit.

I have a flight simulator program (not the Microsoft one) that I used to enjoy
on previous versions of Windows, up to and including XP. When I got this new
system two years ago, I installed the program, Falcon 4.0, but everytime I tried
to launch the program under Windows 7, it crashed, they system locked up and I
had to reboot.

I have virtual Windows XP system, which launches fines, but I can't find the
program I want to try and play with. In fact, I can't find most of the programs
that are actually installed on my computer while in the XP mode.

Do I have to install Falcon 4.0 while in the XP mode? Many of the programs I
have on the computer worked fine in XP, so why can't I even find them in the
virtual XP mode? Thanks.

Because Virtual PC - XP-Mode functions as a separate machine within a
machine, IF you need full video-card support and drivers, consider
setting up your machine to multi-boot additional operating systems.

This allows you to install all the drivers and speciaql features that
are not available under Virtuak PC.

MJR
 
J

Jason

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:59:59 -0500 "TheGunslinger"
This allows you to install all the drivers and speciaql features that
are not available under Virtuak PC.

MJR
Somewhat OT, but does Virtual PC support installation of any drivers at
all? I have an XP app I'd like to use. The app is said to run fine on Win
7, but the company didn't provide a Win 7 driver (for a USB device).
 
P

Paul

Jason said:
On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:59:59 -0500 "TheGunslinger"


Somewhat OT, but does Virtual PC support installation of any drivers at
all? I have an XP app I'd like to use. The app is said to run fine on Win
7, but the company didn't provide a Win 7 driver (for a USB device).
The hardware is generally emulated. Many things the guest OS thinks it is
doing, it is doing to "faked" hardware. The guest OS tends to be
"insulated", which limits some things it can do from a hardware
perspective. For example, a 3D game loaded in WinXP Mode, might
not work very well.

Some virtual machines, support "USB passthru", and that's about as
close as they come to something useful. Other interfaces that may
be directly supported, are things like serial ports (where COM2 in
the guest OS, can be mapped to COM1 on the actual hardware). So there
are a few things that "punch through" the sandbox, to the outside
world. Most virtual machine softwares, would likely allow you to run
a dialup modem for example (big deal... :) )

Windows Virtual PC has *some* treatment of USB, but it is not
the same as the way VirtualBox does it. I think there may be
passthru for devices of USBStor class, on Windows Virtual PC.
That means, Windows Virtual PC only treats certain "classes"
of devices in a special way. Whereas VirtualBox redirects
USB traffic on specific VID and PID, at the USB packet level.
That makes the device "disappear" from the host OS, and "reappear"
in the guest OS, when VirtualBox is used. Microsoft chose to
not design their passthru in Windows Virtual PC that way,
for reasons that aren't clear (patents?).

Try running a copy of Everest in the guest OS, and get it to
list the hardware for you, and you'll see that the guest OS
sees a quite different environment, than the one your host OS
is seeing.

http://majorgeeks.com/download4181.html

For example, part of the emulated hardware in Windows Virtual PC,
will be a chipset from the 440BX era. It's done that way,
in the hope that more guest OSes support older hardware.
Which is true up to a point. Windows Virtual PC also presents
the networking interface, as a DEC Tulip ethernet chip. The
WinXP Mode OS installation, would install a driver for a DEC Tulip
chip, but the Windows Virtual PC software interprets what it's
doing to that "fake" chip, and routes the resulting packets
to the real hardware as part of its emulation.

The Windows Virtual PC also creates "I/O bottlenecks", when
doing its thing. By doing emulation of hardware, the interface
can be a lot slower than normal. For example, networking in
Virtual PC, might be limited to around 1.0 to 1.5MB/sec,
depending on the performance level of your CPU. There is
apparently a lot of manual data handling going on there.
Even if the Ethernet chip on your computer is GbE, attempts
by a guest OS to communicate through the Windows Virtual PC
emulation, should be slow.

When virtual machines first came out, a striking limitation,
was the speed they could update the screen. I remember some
older virtual environments I've used, where you could see
the guest OS drawing individual lines of pixels. Kinda like
a slowscan TV of sorts. At least that part of using virtual
environments, is no longer that slow. Things have improved
a lot, from how bad they were at first.

*******

Many people attempt to solve "missing hardware driver problems"
by using WinXP Mode and the underlying Windows Virtual PC. But
since the hardware environment is mostly emulated, with very
limited "passthru", it's not likely a driver problem
can be solved that way. VirtualBox has a more useful USB
passthru feature, that would make running say, a webcam
within VirtualBox work OK. But that might be as close
as you'd get. Windows Virtual PC doesn't do passthru for
USB for just *any* class of device. So the redirection
Windows Virtual PC does, is at the class level, rather than
the USB packet level.

You're better off, to start by investigating whether there
is a hack to get the WinXP driver to run in Windows 7 directly.
There are a few recipes out there for scanners for example.
It's best to Google the make and model number of the scanner,
and see what recipes are available.

Paul
 
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S

Stan Brown

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:59:59 -0500 "TheGunslinger"



Somewhat OT, but does Virtual PC support installation of any drivers at
all? I have an XP app I'd like to use. The app is said to run fine on Win
7, but the company didn't provide a Win 7 driver (for a USB device).
FWIW, about a year ago I couldn't get the driver for my Canon LiDE 50
scanner to work in Virtual PC *or* VMWare Workstation with 32-bit XP.
(The host was a 64-bit Win 7 computer.)
 
J

Jason

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:59:59 -0500 "TheGunslinger"


Somewhat OT, but does Virtual PC support installation of any drivers at
all? I have an XP app I'd like to use. The app is said to run fine on Win
7, but the company didn't provide a Win 7 driver (for a USB device).
The hardware is generally emulated. Many things the guest OS thinks it is
doing, it is doing to "faked" hardware. The guest OS tends to be
"insulated", which limits some things it can do from a hardware
perspective. For example, a 3D game loaded in WinXP Mode, might
not work very well.

Some virtual machines, support "USB passthru", and that's about as
close as they come to something useful. Other interfaces that may
be directly supported, are things like serial ports (where COM2 in
the guest OS, can be mapped to COM1 on the actual hardware). So there
are a few things that "punch through" the sandbox, to the outside
world. Most virtual machine softwares, would likely allow you to run
a dialup modem for example (big deal... :) )

Windows Virtual PC has *some* treatment of USB, but it is not
the same as the way VirtualBox does it. I think there may be
passthru for devices of USBStor class, on Windows Virtual PC.
That means, Windows Virtual PC only treats certain "classes"
of devices in a special way. Whereas VirtualBox redirects
USB traffic on specific VID and PID, at the USB packet level.
That makes the device "disappear" from the host OS, and "reappear"
in the guest OS, when VirtualBox is used. Microsoft chose to
not design their passthru in Windows Virtual PC that way,
for reasons that aren't clear (patents?).

Try running a copy of Everest in the guest OS, and get it to
list the hardware for you, and you'll see that the guest OS
sees a quite different environment, than the one your host OS
is seeing.

http://majorgeeks.com/download4181.html

For example, part of the emulated hardware in Windows Virtual PC,
will be a chipset from the 440BX era. It's done that way,
in the hope that more guest OSes support older hardware.
Which is true up to a point. Windows Virtual PC also presents
the networking interface, as a DEC Tulip ethernet chip. The
WinXP Mode OS installation, would install a driver for a DEC Tulip
chip, but the Windows Virtual PC software interprets what it's
doing to that "fake" chip, and routes the resulting packets
to the real hardware as part of its emulation.

The Windows Virtual PC also creates "I/O bottlenecks", when
doing its thing. By doing emulation of hardware, the interface
can be a lot slower than normal. For example, networking in
Virtual PC, might be limited to around 1.0 to 1.5MB/sec,
depending on the performance level of your CPU. There is
apparently a lot of manual data handling going on there.
Even if the Ethernet chip on your computer is GbE, attempts
by a guest OS to communicate through the Windows Virtual PC
emulation, should be slow.

When virtual machines first came out, a striking limitation,
was the speed they could update the screen. I remember some
older virtual environments I've used, where you could see
the guest OS drawing individual lines of pixels. Kinda like
a slowscan TV of sorts. At least that part of using virtual
environments, is no longer that slow. Things have improved
a lot, from how bad they were at first.

*******

Many people attempt to solve "missing hardware driver problems"
by using WinXP Mode and the underlying Windows Virtual PC. But
since the hardware environment is mostly emulated, with very
limited "passthru", it's not likely a driver problem
can be solved that way. VirtualBox has a more useful USB
passthru feature, that would make running say, a webcam
within VirtualBox work OK. But that might be as close
as you'd get. Windows Virtual PC doesn't do passthru for
USB for just *any* class of device. So the redirection
Windows Virtual PC does, is at the class level, rather than
the USB packet level.

You're better off, to start by investigating whether there
is a hack to get the WinXP driver to run in Windows 7 directly.
There are a few recipes out there for scanners for example.
It's best to Google the make and model number of the scanner,
and see what recipes are available.

Paul[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Paul! I learned a lot. The app I want to run has a USB
interface, but the driver won't install on Win 7. I'm slightly hopeful
that, being USB, I'll have a chance in virtual machine land. I'll give it
a try.
 
R

rfdjr1

I'm running Windows 7 Pro, 64bit.

I have a flight simulator program (not the Microsoft one) that I used to enjoy
on previous versions of Windows, up to and including XP. When I got this new
system two years ago, I installed the program, Falcon 4.0, but everytime I tried
to launch the program under Windows 7, it crashed, they system locked up and I
had to reboot.

I have virtual Windows XP system, which launches fines, but I can't find the
program I want to try and play with. In fact, I can't find most of the programs
that are actually installed on my computer while in the XP mode.

Do I have to install Falcon 4.0 while in the XP mode? Many of the programs I
have on the computer worked fine in XP, so why can't I even find them in the
virtual XP mode? Thanks.

I ended up uninstalling both programs, Falcon 4.0 and Janes US Navy Fighters,
then reinstalling them in the virtual XP mode. They both installed. But when I
tried to laucnh US Navy Fighters, I got a warning:

USNF Fatal Error
640x480 mode not available
Ensure a compatible version of Direct X is installed

Apparently I cannot change the resolution from XP mode. When I try to, it shows
the resolution as being 1680x1050, which is the setting I have for Windows 7,
and I cannot change it to anything else. The slider is greyed out.

When I installed Falcon 4.0, there was an option bax to install DirectX version
3.0. I did not choose to do so because I currently have version 11 on my system.

After the installation, I couldn't get Falcon to run.

So I imagine both problems are related to video resolution?

I have an ATI Radeon HD 5770 1Gb video card, and the lowest setting is 800x600.
So bottom line is throw out these two programs?

Thanks.
 
P

Paul

I ended up uninstalling both programs, Falcon 4.0 and Janes US Navy Fighters,
then reinstalling them in the virtual XP mode. They both installed. But when I
tried to laucnh US Navy Fighters, I got a warning:

USNF Fatal Error
640x480 mode not available
Ensure a compatible version of Direct X is installed

Apparently I cannot change the resolution from XP mode. When I try to, it shows
the resolution as being 1680x1050, which is the setting I have for Windows 7,
and I cannot change it to anything else. The slider is greyed out.

When I installed Falcon 4.0, there was an option bax to install DirectX version
3.0. I did not choose to do so because I currently have version 11 on my system.

After the installation, I couldn't get Falcon to run.

So I imagine both problems are related to video resolution?

I have an ATI Radeon HD 5770 1Gb video card, and the lowest setting is 800x600.
So bottom line is throw out these two programs?

Thanks.
Or, get an OS you already own, and install it as your guest OS, like this.

Falcon 4.0
|
Guest OS (that old copy of Win2K you used to run, using the old license key)
|
VirtualBox (from Sun/Oracle, free download)
|
Windows 7

VirtualBox has tick boxes for DirectX, which is the only
reason I'm suggesting you try experimenting with it. I don't
know how well it works, just that it had tick boxes.

WinXP mode, by comparison, looks like this.

Falcon 4.0
|
Guest OS (500MB WinXP Mode download from Microsoft)
|
Windows Virtual PC (16MB download from Microsoft, DirectX support unknown...)
|
Windows 7

I don't think the WinXP Mode file will run in VirtualBox.

Apparently there's an option in VMWare (another virtual machine software),
to run WinXP Mode file, but the importation of the image uses the same rules,
as the rules Microsoft applies to which versions of Windows 7 can host WinXP Mode.
But with VMWare, I don't know if they do anything special for DirectX. That
would be another long shot, in terms of not paying Microsoft for anything more.

You have to love experimenting, to do all this stuff.

HTH,
Paul
 
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G

Gene Wirchenko

I'm running Windows 7 Pro, 64bit.

I have a flight simulator program (not the Microsoft one) that I used to enjoy
on previous versions of Windows, up to and including XP. When I got this new
system two years ago, I installed the program, Falcon 4.0, but everytime I tried
to launch the program under Windows 7, it crashed, they system locked up and I
had to reboot.

I have virtual Windows XP system, which launches fines, but I can't find the
program I want to try and play with. In fact, I can't find most of the programs
that are actually installed on my computer while in the XP mode.

Do I have to install Falcon 4.0 while in the XP mode? Many of the programs I
have on the computer worked fine in XP, so why can't I even find them in the
virtual XP mode? Thanks.
DOSBox is an emulator for DOS games. You might try it.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
 

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