New computer but win 7 or 8

[Wolf K]

Consider this an open invitation to explain how the new UI "doesn't
have to ever be used". I've got it down to a minimum, but so far I can't
avoid it entirely, although I would like to.

+1

I did occasionally use one of the "apps" early on. They hog the whole
screen, and display no obvious way to exit to either Metro or the
standard GUI. There's some key-combo or something to get back to where
you need to be. Needless to say, I no longer use any of the "apps", even
though W8 persists in telling there is a "new app that can open this
type of file".

What we need is a list of registry hacks that will turn off the things
we may now want. Anybody here willing to experiment and report back?

 

[Mellowed]

Did you manage to kill the 'hot zone' in the upper left corner and the other
W8 zone along the right edge of the screen that pops out the multiple icons?
Also, were you able to kill the capability to switch UI's when pressing the
Windows key by itself?

Until I can completely hide the new UI, I'm still recommending Win7 to the
people who ask me, so it would be nice to address these last few items.

I seem to recall when using Start8 that in the setup options there is
the option to kill the hot zones. I can't verify that since I no longer
use Win8 and have reverted back to Win7.

 

[Laszlo Lebrun]

I agree with you to a point. I had Win8 for a while but then started
over for reasons other then the OS and went back to Win7. I just
could not see any advantage to win8 for Desktop use. The plus's, what
few there were, were in very small performance improvements and some
nice (but not critically needed) improvements in some of the native
apps. The Cons included the horrible look to Win8, it was like going
back in time to Win3 with zero finesse in the "looks" aspect. If I
was going to be the unpaid support for someone and I was running Win7
I would want them to be running win7 also, esp on a desktop.

You should not forget that Windows 8 has got a lot of invisible
improvements under the hood. It includes a much better handling of
current hardware and has cleaned up quite a lot of all the mess that
accumulated over the years. The FAT times are over...

With a "classic shell", using almost exclusively the desktop and with a
with few tweaks (reduce the frame thickness, reclaim the quick links),
you will not find a lot of difference.
OK the graphics are a bit less "piano-lacked", but honestly who cares?

I really enjoy on the other side the shorter boot times, the longer time
on battery and the new rescue functionalities, the overdue improvements
in the copy functionalities is also very welcome.

And -from time to time- I even go for the modern view e.g. to have a
look at the newspaper sites, which are refreshingly clean, compared to
their ad-cluttered IE or Chrome counterpart. Guess that this will not
last very long...

 

[Stef]

For the most part that's true. With Windows 8 a few changes (MSFT calls
them features) come into play. Win8 includes a Fast Boot feature to
significantly reduce shutdown to startup signon time. The feature can be
turned off, if not it uses the hibernate file to speed up the process
(which is actually quite significant).

As I understand it, Fast Boot is no more than a super sleep mode. The
system still remains powered--not totally turned off as when
hibernating--but uses much less power than the traditional sleep mode.
However, if you leave a tablet or notebook in this state long enough,
the battery will run down. Fast Boot is Microsoft marketing hype.

Stef

 

[Paul]

+1

I did occasionally use one of the "apps" early on. They hog the whole
screen, and display no obvious way to exit to either Metro or the
standard GUI. There's some key-combo or something to get back to where
you need to be. Needless to say, I no longer use any of the "apps", even
though W8 persists in telling there is a "new app that can open this
type of file".

What we need is a list of registry hacks that will turn off the things
we may now want. Anybody here willing to experiment and report back?

There are two options (not verified by me) for Windows 8.

If your single LCD screen is 1366 or more pixels wide, you can
have "1.5 apps" on the screen. One app takes most of the screen,
a second can be wedged in on the side.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-brHQuNXNjUE/TnjCIhQO7DI/AAAAAAAAEn4/0Pd0_450_dY/s1600/Windows-8-Snap.jpg

If you connect two LCD monitors to the Windows 8 computer, you
can have a Metro on one screen, and a desktop on the other screen.
Maybe you can actually multitask this way. How useful.

http://www.starkeith.net/coredump/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/windows-8-on-dual-monitors.jpg

Those are the claims.

With my single 1280x1024 screen (at the moment), I can't verify
either of these options. Snap should be disabled, if the OS
detects your single screen is below 1366.

I have a second monitor, but there isn't really enough room for it to
fit comfortably on my desktop. If I put the monitor stand in place,
and drop the second monitor into my setup, I can't reach the phone
(hidden underneath)

Monitor stand (scrap lumber to the rescue). Four inch screws
inside the two main pieces of wood, hold them together:

http://imageshack.us/a/img35/5821/monitorstand.jpg

The monitor stand, brings my second monitor, precisely up to
the same baseline as the primary monitor. The second monitor
(only $100), doesn't have an adjustable stand.

Paul

 

[Paul]

As I understand it, Fast Boot is no more than a super sleep mode. The
system still remains powered--not totally turned off as when
hibernating--but uses much less power than the traditional sleep mode.
However, if you leave a tablet or notebook in this state long enough,
the battery will run down. Fast Boot is Microsoft marketing hype.

Stef

This is a subset of all the options on your Windows 8 setup:

1) Select "Hibernate" from the menu.
Computer shuts down. Computer does not need to maintain a source
of power. You can unplug it if you want.

Windows 8 stores Kernel + Applications in the Hibernation file.
Windows 8 sets the hardware state bit (BIOS level), to hibernate,
so the BIOS immediately returns to the same boot disk choice on
the next startup (i.e. BIOS immediately starts restoring, rather
than listening to your pathetic attempts to change OSes).

2) Select "Shutdown" from the menu.
Computer shuts down. Computer does not need to maintain a source
of power. You can unplug it if you want.

Windows 8 stores Kernel in the Hibernation file.

Windows 8 sets the hardware state bit (BIOS level), to hibernate,
so the BIOS immediately returns to the same boot disk choice on
the next startup. [In my opinion, this is a design mistake, and
should not have been done that way.]

This option is a "Fast Boot". No applications will be running,
when you first see the desktop.

3) If you modify your OS, such that Fast Boot (2) is disabled,
then when you select "Shutdown", nothing is recorded. This
is termed a "Full Shutdown". On next boot, the BIOS goes
through all the normal boot selection options. Windows 8
kernel boots, by reading a gazillion small files from C:,
and so (3) is slower than (2).

The behavior in (2), is new to Windows 8. Other OSes, like WinXP,
use (1) and (3). WinXP doesn't have an option to just hibernate
the kernel (but you can fake it, by quitting all applications,
and then hibernating as in (1) ).

And all of the above, have nothing to do with Suspend To RAM,
which is an option for even faster restoration, based on
the session being stored in the RAM, and maintained by
+5VSB power source. Options in that case include the
classical "Suspend To RAM" S3, or the newer "Hybrid S3",
where for emergencies, the hibernation file also has the
session recorded in it. In the Hybrid approach, if you
accidentally turn the power off, you can still recover.
It's just slower. Best case, Hybrid S3 picks up from
the session stored in RAM, so most of the time, you
get fast startup.

I'm not even sure which OSes support the Hybrid S3 approach
(which is effectively a mixture of both S3 and S4 approaches).
Says here, it started with Vista.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_mode#Hybrid_sleep

Also, another source of confusion, there are *three* big
files in the root of C:, on Windows 8. But the smallest
of the three, isn't what you think it is. And since there
is no official documentation for this at Microsoft,
I can't say much more about it. Plenty of people have
*guessed* at the purpose of the files, but nobody at
Microsoft has verified it.

Paul

 

[gufus]

To eliminate a pop-up error message, a false positive, I run
MS Word 2000 under Windows XP-SP3 compatibility in Windows 7
Pro, 64-bit.

Yes, It's a nice option "Windows XP-SP3 compatibility in Windows 7"

 

[Ken Blake]

On 4/14/2013 2:44 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
I consider long boot times as indicative of a lot of crap I don't need
being loaded and taking up precious RAM that could better be used
for something else.


Bear in mind that if you load a program and don't use it, the RAM it
took up is very quickly paged out. So what you say isn't necessarily
correct at all.

Yes, but your comment doesn't AFAIK apply to start-up applets, which
will run in the background. Only cure is to prune the start-up and the
Windows services lists.

Actually, it does apply to most startup applets.They sit in the
background, not actually running, but waiting for you to press some
key (or some other event to occur) to activate and use them.[...]

We're quibbling about semantics. An applet that "sits in the background"
is using RAM, and checking interrupts. In my lexicon that means it's
running.

Sure, but the amount of RAM it uses is tiny and the number of CPU
cycles it uses is very few. For all intents and purposes, it's so
close to "not running" that it's very hard to tell apart.

 

[Ken Blake]

If it's not used, it's a waste of time to load it, and it shouldn't
be regardless of what the system does with idle processes.

You are misunderstanding what I said, or perhaps I've said it badly
and confused you. When I say "not used," I mean not in use all the
time, only when you need it. As an example, I use and recommend the
freeware program AllChars. This lets me (in all applications), type
many common special characters (many of these are used in other
languages) by pressing the ctrl key followed by a two character
mnemonic combination.

For example, for ñ the two characters are ~ and n. For ç it's c and ,
For ü it's u and "

So the great majority of time it's not used, but it's there for when I
need it. I may go a day or several days in a row without using it,
then use use it several times in the following day. My point is that
the penalty for having it loaded is somewhere between zero or so tiny
that it's not noticeable, but the benefit of having it there for when
I need it is great (at least for me).

 

[Ken Blake]

Did you manage to kill the 'hot zone' in the upper left corner and the other
W8 zone along the right edge of the screen that pops out the multiple icons?

Yes, easily.

Also, were you able to kill the capability to switch UI's when pressing the
Windows key by itself?

No.


Until I can completely hide the new UI, I'm still recommending Win7 to the
people who ask me, so it would be nice to address these last few items.

Your choice of course, but I don't see any need to completely hide it,
and I even use it once in a while.

 

[Ken Blake]

Consider this an open invitation to explain how the new UI "doesn't
have to ever be used". I've got it down to a minimum, but so far I can't
avoid it entirely, although I would like to.

You don't ever have to go there on purpose (although you might
occasionally get there accidentally, to me that's no big deal).

And going there is very different from using it. Looking at it isn't
using it, Clicking on a tile there and running an application there is
using it.

 

[Ken Blake]

+1

I did occasionally use one of the "apps" early on. They hog the whole
screen,

You might want to look at the new third-party program that I like and
you might want is the $4.99 ModernMix at
http://www.stardock.com/products/modernmix/

It lets you run applications on tiles on the Modern UI in a window on
the desktop.

 

[...winston]

As I understand it, Fast Boot is no more than a super sleep mode. The
system still remains powered--not totally turned off as when
hibernating--but uses much less power than the traditional sleep mode.
However, if you leave a tablet or notebook in this state long enough,
the battery will run down. Fast Boot is Microsoft marketing hype.

Stef

Hi Stef,

See Paul's answer regarding power consumption with Fast Boot enabled.

I've even taken the battery out and unplugged the power supply for
over a day to see if Fast Boot still functions (it does).

Initially, when I only had Windows 8 Pro, the default store apps, and
Office 2013 installed the time difference with Fast Boot enabled vs.
disabled was about 20 sec. Now with a variety of third party programs
(Sea Monkey, Skype Desktop and Win8 app, Acronis TI 2013, etc) the time
difference is a multiple (2x).

For my usage, the time difference is not even a remote concern since I'm
rarely in a rush to get to any pc's welcome screen on a cold start.

On Win8 I do keep an eye on Task Manager (which serves as Win7's
Msconfig)and disable what I can or don't need.

Although, over time I've tweaked a few things in Win8 Pro (registry,
GPO, Local Group Policy etc.)so my results may or may not be indicative
of everyone.

lol...my ipod touch still is ready to go sooner than any of my pcs...I
can power it on and have incoming mail before I finish logging on to
Windows.

 

[Stef]

You are misunderstanding what I said, or perhaps I've said it badly
and confused you. When I say "not used," I mean not in use all the
time, only when you need it. As an example, I use and recommend the
freeware program AllChars. This lets me (in all applications), type
many common special characters (many of these are used in other
languages) by pressing the ctrl key followed by a two character
mnemonic combination.

For example, for ñ the two characters are ~ and n. For ç it's c and ,
For ü it's u and "

So the great majority of time it's not used, but it's there for when I
need it. I may go a day or several days in a row without using it,
then use use it several times in the following day. My point is that
the penalty for having it loaded is somewhere between zero or so tiny
that it's not noticeable, but the benefit of having it there for when
I need it is great (at least for me).

Perhaps, you've misunderstood me as well. I was not referring to
utilities and such that you choose to load at boot time like AllChars,
even though it increases boot time. I do the same thing. I usually
load at least a file manager and browser at boot time, so they are up
and running when I need them even though I may not use them immediately.
I also run a few background utilities for my convenience and system
security. Even so, my boot times from power on to usable desktop is
around 20 seconds on my XP SP3 machine, and that includes logging in!
(I'm a fast typer. ;-) )

What I was referring to was the OS startup crap that Microsoft and 3rd
party vendors, when you install their software, load. They just
increase boot times, use RAM, and are of little, if any, benefit. If I
don't need it, which is most of the time, I make sure it's not
ever loaded on my machines.


Stef

 

[stones]

And -from time to time- I even go for the modern view e.g. to have a
look at the newspaper sites, which are refreshingly clean, compared to
their ad-cluttered IE or Chrome counterpart.

Use Firefox. Use AdBlock Plus.

 

[stones]

I did occasionally use one of the "apps" early on. They hog the whole
screen, and display no obvious way to exit to either Metro or the
standard GUI. There's some key-combo or something to get back to where
you need to be. Needless to say, I no longer use any of the "apps", even
though W8 persists in telling there is a "new app that can open this
type of file".

What we need is a list of registry hacks that will turn off the things
we may now want.

The best registry hack for that, IMO, is a Windows 7 install disc.

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:59:18 +0000 (UTC), "stones" <stoneyroost14

Use Firefox. Use AdBlock Plus.

And NoScript. And DoNotTrack.

--
Zaphod

"So [Trillian], two heads is what does it for a girl?"
"...Anything else [Zaphod]'s got two of?"
- Arthur Dent

 

[Ken Springer]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:59:18 +0000 (UTC), "stones" <stoneyroost14


And NoScript. And DoNotTrack.

And check those LSO cookies, too. Just another safety precaution.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.3
Firefox 20.0
Thunderbird 17.0.5
LibreOffice 4.0.1.2

 

[Wolf K]

The best registry hack for that, IMO, is a Windows 7 install disc.

LOL

 

[Stef]

As I understand it, Fast Boot is no more than a super sleep mode. The
system still remains powered--not totally turned off as when
hibernating--but uses much less power than the traditional sleep mode.
However, if you leave a tablet or notebook in this state long enough,
the battery will run down. Fast Boot is Microsoft marketing hype.

Stef

This is a subset of all the options on your Windows 8 setup:

1) Select "Hibernate" from the menu.
Computer shuts down. Computer does not need to maintain a source
of power. You can unplug it if you want.

Windows 8 stores Kernel + Applications in the Hibernation file.
Windows 8 sets the hardware state bit (BIOS level), to hibernate,
so the BIOS immediately returns to the same boot disk choice on
the next startup (i.e. BIOS immediately starts restoring, rather
than listening to your pathetic attempts to change OSes).

2) Select "Shutdown" from the menu.
Computer shuts down. Computer does not need to maintain a source
of power. You can unplug it if you want.

Windows 8 stores Kernel in the Hibernation file.

Windows 8 sets the hardware state bit (BIOS level), to hibernate,
so the BIOS immediately returns to the same boot disk choice on
the next startup. [In my opinion, this is a design mistake, and
should not have been done that way.]

This option is a "Fast Boot". No applications will be running,
when you first see the desktop.

3) If you modify your OS, such that Fast Boot (2) is disabled,
then when you select "Shutdown", nothing is recorded. This
is termed a "Full Shutdown". On next boot, the BIOS goes
through all the normal boot selection options. Windows 8
kernel boots, by reading a gazillion small files from C:,
and so (3) is slower than (2).

The behavior in (2), is new to Windows 8. Other OSes, like WinXP,
use (1) and (3). WinXP doesn't have an option to just hibernate
the kernel (but you can fake it, by quitting all applications,
and then hibernating as in (1) ).

And all of the above, have nothing to do with Suspend To RAM,
which is an option for even faster restoration, based on
the session being stored in the RAM, and maintained by
+5VSB power source. Options in that case include the
classical "Suspend To RAM" S3, or the newer "Hybrid S3",
where for emergencies, the hibernation file also has the
session recorded in it. In the Hybrid approach, if you
accidentally turn the power off, you can still recover.
It's just slower. Best case, Hybrid S3 picks up from
the session stored in RAM, so most of the time, you
get fast startup.

I'm not even sure which OSes support the Hybrid S3 approach
(which is effectively a mixture of both S3 and S4 approaches).
Says here, it started with Vista.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_mode#Hybrid_sleep

Also, another source of confusion, there are *three* big
files in the root of C:, on Windows 8. But the smallest
of the three, isn't what you think it is. And since there
is no official documentation for this at Microsoft,
I can't say much more about it. Plenty of people have
*guessed* at the purpose of the files, but nobody at
Microsoft has verified it.

Paul

Thanks for the detailed explanation. The reading I did on Fast Boot was
wrong, but to be fair, the article (about W8's new features) was written
while W8 was still in development. So, the writer could have made
a mistake, or I misinterpreted it, or the writer was right and
Microsoft changed the way Fast Boot worked in the final release. I
don't know. And actually all this is academic, since I don't have a W8
machine, and probably, never will: W8 has too many "cons," and not
enough "pros" to entice me, a lot like Vista. ;-)

Stef