PSU.Suitable output

[Mychael]

Yep, I've had PSU's well over 5yrs old, some getting on for 8 in some of my older builds. Warranty to me speaks of confidence by the maker in their product.

 

[Cypress]

Your choice. I'll toss mine within three years. I'd blame consumerism.

 

[Nibiru2012]

Your choice. I'll toss mine within three years. I'd blame consumerism.

That's not very smart or very economical. You must have "consumerism" very bad to toss a perfectly good PSU after three years. So apparently the "Madison Ave" hype worked.

If it a quality PSU built by a reputable manufacturer there is no reason just to toss it. Since they're constructed of solid-state components they should last quite a while.

 

[Digerati]

I doubt anyone keeps a PSU for 7 yrs

I kept a PSU for over 8 years!

Me too! I have several computers that are pushing 10 years old, with original PSUs. When I buy a PSU, I buy expecting the PSU to last many years through several hardware changes and upgrades.

In days gone by, the quality of the power supply was judged by its weight too, signifying quality transformer, heat sinks, filtering capacitors, etc., and it still holds true today.

:lol: In days past, as it is today, that has ALWAYS been an invalid test. Always! Weight has absolutely no bearing on the "quality" of a PSU, transformer, heat sink or capacitor. Weights may differ because one has longer wires. Steel case instead of aluminum. Two fans instead of one. More vents. Less vents. Aluminum heatsinks or copper. Two or four rails instead of one. Hard wired or modular. 400W or 750W. None of those variables (and those are just a few) are indications of "quality". Do not judge a PSU by its weight unless your goal is to build the heaviest or lightest PC.

 

[Nibiru2012]

:lol: In days past, as it is today, that has ALWAYS been an invalid test. Always! Weight has absolutely no bearing on the "quality" of a PSU, transformer, heat sink or capacitor. Weights may differ because one has longer wires. Steel case instead of aluminum. Two fans instead of one. More vents. Less vents. Aluminum heatsinks or copper. Two or four rails instead of one. Hard wired or modular. 400W or 750W. None of those variables (and those are just a few) are indications of "quality". Do not judge a PSU by its weight unless your goal is to build the heaviest or lightest PC.

I'll disagree with you on this one, but everyone has their own opinion.

 

[Digerati]

Then tell us something that makes sense. Educate us. Show us where heavier means "better quality". I'm not going by opinion. I am going by technical facts. How does a steel case denote "better quality" over a lighter weight aluminum case?

How does a power supply which weighs more because it has modular cables (which are heavier than cables with no connections) denote "better quality"?

How does a PSU that weighs more because it is 750 watt supply (and contains a larger transformer) denote "better quality" because it is heavier than a 500 watt supply with a smaller transformer?

How does a PSU with 4 12V rails which requires a larger "tapped" transformer, more components, and a more complex design denote "better quality" than a PSU with a single rail design with no taps, fewer parts, and less complex design?

Show us something that says the weight of a capacitor is an indication of "better quality".

There are too many variables in the making of PSUs to use weight as a determining factor for quality.

Ever since the introduction of transistors and other solid state devices in consumer electronics, an ever present goal of design has been to make devices smaller, lighter and more efficient. That's no different with power supplies.

 

[Nibiru2012]

Sometimes your posts would be more useful if you put a positive spin on them.

It appears you have a massive chip on your shoulder. The grumpy duck avatar fits you well!

How about some Runza recipes instead?

 

[Digerati]

So when you can't defend your position, you deflect and launch personal attacks? That's a very mature, professional, and informative approach you have there.

I stand my position: you cannot measure the quality of a PSU by it's weight. If you could, I am sure a product's marketing departments would be advertising their PSUs are the heaviest around.

 

[Digerati]

And you know what makes me grumpy? People proclaiming to be experts who make technical claims they are unwilling to substantiate, or when unable to substantiate, are unwilling to admit they erred.

 

[Nibiru2012]

To back up my point about weight and such, from WikiHOW

Determine the robustness of the PSU. How well does the PSU handle changes in current? Although not a guarantee, there's a strong correlation between weight and quality: bigger components (ie, capacitors) equate to a more tolerant, reliable PSU. This is one downside to a 120mm fan: while it does provide quieter cooling, the components to be cooled must be more tightly packed. If you don't care about noise, an 80mm cooling fan in the traditional place on the rear of the PSU may offer better value.

Source: http://www.wikihow.com/Buy-a-Power-Supply

There you have it! Point made to backup what I stated: the quality of the power supply was judged by its weight too, signifying quality transformer, heat sinks, filtering capacitors, etc., and it still holds true today.

I have dealt with electronics for over 45 years and the above statement held true back then as it does today.

Now about those Runza recipes... :eating:

 

[Digerati]

The problem with wiki's is they are written by anybody, and edited by anybody. Did you see who lasted edited it? Somebody named "Anonymous"! They are not technical papers. You've proved nothing. All weight in a PSU might, and I emphasize might suggest is that it has more current carrying capability. That does not, in any way, suggest "quality". More current simply suggests more wattage - again, not quality and not reliability.

Now granted, a less capable supply may mean a less reliable "computer" but that's an indication of poor computer design, not poor PSU design. I gave a 1/2 dozen examples where weight variables have nothing to do with quality. There is no correlation between weight and quality. There is a correlation between choosing the right PSU for the application.

The wiki article is wrong. There is no correlation between capacitor weight and reliability.

Here is a capacitor maker who advertises their "Light weight".

Here is an Air Force white paper (see page 11) that extols the goals of capacitor technologies to

• Increase Energy Density (J/cc) by 6X
• Reduced Weight & Volume
• Increased Reliability & Shot Life
• Millisecond Discharge Rates

Here they talk about

Typical applications replace standard military capacitors, or augment batteries and power supplies where size, weight, reliability and quality are important factors of component selection.

Hybrid capacitors provide very high power and energy from devices much smaller and lighter than electrically equivalent tantalum wet, tantalum chip, or aluminum electrolytic capacitors.

Do I need to give examples of core technologies of transformers too showing how some use advanced lightweight, extremely robust composite core materials and others use heavy materials, such as iron?

And while I only have 40 years as an electronics technician as seen by the link in my sig, one thing I have learned in the last 4 decades is there are many out there who have failed miserably to keep up with advancing technologies. Don't be one of them.

*****

Let's pick apart that wiki article a bit.

1. Determine the wattage you need. ...find a review of a similar system that measures power consumption. As that consumption is measured at the wall, multiply by the review system's power supply's efficiency to get the output. (If you don't know, 0.82 will be close or slightly pessimistic.)

So this is telling us if we don't know the efficiency of a PSU, use 82%!!! And they are calling that being pessimistic??? 70% is typical for PSUs, 60% is pessimistic but beyond that, it is saying to take what the review measures, then multiply that by .82. So if the reviewer measure consumption at 300Watts, he wants you to multiply by .82 to get 246W. Then he wants you to use that lower wattage value to choose a PSU. Sound right? Not to me.

2. Research which connectors you need. Newer PSUs will often provide both a 24-pin ATX connector that doubles as a 20-pin connector.

Know what that means? I don't either.

and only high-end PSUs will have one or more 6-pin PCI-E connectors for video cards.

That's totally not true.

4. Determine the robustness of the PSU. This is one downside to a 120mm fan: while it does provide quieter cooling, the components to be cooled must be more tightly packed. If you don't care about noise, an 80mm cooling fan in the traditional place on the rear of the PSU may offer better value.

That is total nonsense. While the ATX Form Factor Standard for ATX PSU dictates the length, width, and mounting hole placement, it does not dictate the depth. There is nothing that says a 120mm fan will create a cramped space requiring components to be more tightly packed.

But beyond that, the primary purpose for using larger fans for cooling is they move massive amount of air. It is just a bonus they typically do it more quietly.

5. Check the number of rails - A good power supply will make that easy by providing rails totalling much more than the total PSU rating.

WRONG!!!! If a PSU is capable of delivering "much more" than rated, then that is in violations of countless laws, regulations and codes.

An even cheaper alternative, which has become quite popular, is to eliminate all of the safety circuitry and produce a "single-rail" power supply that can deliver all of its output on any wire. This is technically in violation of the ATX-power-supply specification

WRONG!!!! Here's the ATX Form Factor PSU Design Guide - where does it say anything about safety and single rails? The fact of the matter is, a single 12V rail PSU is likely to be much more reliable because, simply, it has much fewer components. The only purpose for multiple rails is (in theory) to isolate circuits so a fried graphic card, for example, does not take out a hard drive. But the fact of the matter is, a well made single rail is able to sense an over current situation just as easily as a multi-rail system, and react accordingly.

6. Get a modular PSU. It will help eliminate extra wires to get in the way of cooling. Ignore the claims by PC Power & Cooling that modular cables create more resistance due to corrosion of contacts. The additional resistance is negligible.

WRONG!!!! A good case will provide cable management opportunities to route used and unused cables where they minimize impacting air flow. And used cables are in the way, regardless if modular or not. And do NOT ignore PC P&C's warning about resistance in connectors. That is a very real problem for any - regardless the quality of the connector. Dirt and moisture can get inside even the best made connectors. Unused connectors are exposed to all kinds of dirt, which can be a factor if the connector is later used. Is the resistance negligible? In most cases, yes. But not all connectors are made equal. Connectors don't always connect securely - either from damage, or user error.

So there are many flagrant errors in the wiki. Want more examples?

Major labels such as Rosewill (a Newegg.com house brand), offer value, but at the cost of performance and reliability.

So major lables have poor performance and reliability??? And I note Rosewill is NOT a Newegg house brand as can be seen here.

 

[Nibiru2012]

You must have a LOT of time on your hands...

 

[Digerati]

Oh yes. And it is really great too. I get to spend time with my grandkids, fix long neglected things around the house (it's almost as old as me) and it affords me the opportunity to read and do research so I can make sure folks have the correct and current information they need to make informed decisions about their hardware and computer/network security concerns.

BTW, you mentioned earlier,

Seasonic, PC Power & Cooling, Corsair, CooolerMaster, Mushkin, Antec, OCZ, ThermalTake, FSP Group, Zalman and Xigmatech are all name brand top quality PSU units.

I have used all of them, Antec forever, most recently Mushkin and Corsair (not on your list, but an excellent maker), except Xigmatek (assuming I have spelled it right - and it is the same company noted for decent 3rd party coolers).

Do you have personal experience with this brand of PSUs?

I tend to buy and recommend brands listed under the "Good" column of PC Mechanic's PSU Reference List and I don't see that brand listed at all. Reviews, while not really bad, are less than stellar, and considering the prices, it seems they should be better. I really could not find a good review.

TechPowerUP - Xigmatek 850W was less than impressed with it's noise and costs. Anandtech says pretty much the same thing about 1000 and 1200w models, adding that ripple, while still within specs, is a little higher than competing brands. And OverclockersClub - 500w found

The ripple/noise levels are very disappointing and are at a level that is really unacceptable.

The Xigmatek NRP-PC502 power supply will probably be OK in an office/internet PC but not in a gaming or overclocking rig. There are far better 500W units available in this price bracket.

it fell short of the 80 Plus Bronze mark

JonnyGuru:

Performance was nothing really exciting
this will not compete too well when confronted by a good independently regulated unit like perhaps the Corsair VX550
The Bad: short cables hates being crossloaded
The Mediocre: doesn't seem to like full power operation above 40 degrees

HardwareHaven:

we cannot claim that any of the features or performance aspects of the NRP-MC851 were impressive
the acoustics performance leaves something to be desired

if however you are going to be constantly loading the PSU near the 850w limit we recommend you contemplate something else

From what I am reading, it would not be on my list of recommended brands.

 

[TrainableMan]

Wiki just as accurate as Britannica

 

[Digerati]

This is what I mean by having lots of time affords me the opportunity to read and research - it helps prevent me from jumping to invalid conclusions or assumptions.

TrainableMan, did you read that CNET article you linked to? It is not saying Britanica is accurate! In fact, it found that Britanica has an average of 2.92 mistakes per article! And it is not talking about Wikis in general, but "Wikipedia" specifically and it had 3.86 mistakes per article!!!

That said, I often do cite Wikipedia, but not normally as a sole reference. But to the point of this thread, Wikipedia has absolutely nothing to do with Wikihow, and except for the fact both have articles written and edited anonymously, they have nothing in common.

 

[TrainableMan]

Yes I understood, basically there is a chance for error in any source,

 

[Nibiru2012]

I have a techie friend who bought Xigmatech and he ran through the paces at the IBM lab he works in here in Austin, TX. He was impressed. So I based the recommendation based on his tests, my bad.

So far as web reviews are concerned you are correct though.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I personally use a Bgears bTarantula 550watt pigtail modular PSU and it got very good reviews, it's just sad that their name is not more recognized out in the cyberworld.

Overclockers Club gave it a GOLD rating. OCC does good reviews IMHO.

From the conclusion page of their review:

Conclusion:
So how did the big bad spider do in the testing? Pretty well, actually! When loading the system, the voltages rarely fluctuated from the readings at idle. The 12volt lines measured 12.10 volts each at idle and 12.09 volts under load. The 5volt and 3.3volt lines each had a fluctuation of only .01volts from idle to load. To say I was surprised is an understatement. The semi-modular design is different from other fully modular designs.

The ATX 20+4 and 4+4 pin auxillary power are both non-modular connections. This is both a positive and negative in my opinion. Positive because there are no breaks in the wiring to cause power supply or regulation issues because of increased resistance. A negative for the fact that even with the breaks in the wiring with a fully modular power supply there have been no side effects from the break in the wiring to create the modular connections.

The finish appears to be baked on since I did not cause any damage while installing it or opening the Tarantula's case. With an efficiency rating of up to 86%, this unit could help out with the energy bills that only seem to be creeping upwards. If you need a power supply with tight voltage regulation, low noise (even under load) that can handle a newer rig with multiple video cards and a quad core CPU, you should give the Bgears Tarantula a look before you buy!

Pros:

• Functional
• Good Looks
• Power Regulation
• Modular Design
• High Efficiency
• Sleeved Cables
• 135mm Fan
• Low Noise

Cons:

• Not Fully Modular

1. Introduction & Closer Look
2. Closer Look (The Power Supply)
3. Closer Look ( Accessories, Cables)
4. Installation
5. Specifications & Features
6. Testing (Setup, Idle, Load, Airflow Testing)
7. Conclusion

Source: http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/bgears_550watt_tarantula/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another review from Test Freaks.com This is for the 650 watt unit, but again as solid performer as the 550 watt unit.

Conclusion:
The bgears b-Tarantula power supply is a very good choice if you’re in the market for a modular PSU, it’s not only stable but quiet as well.
The unique modular style of the b-Tarantula is very useful if you’ve got a cramped case or even a tight small form factor case, you can just bend the cables to connect them, and of course since it’s modular you only use what you need and won’t have extra cable floating around your case.

Pros:
Stable power
Quiet
Well made
Uniquely modular
Cons:
None really
Grades: Overall

Design

Performance

http://www.testfreaks.com/blog/review/bgears-b-tarantula-650watt-power-supply/

 

[Cypress]

I bought a Xigmatek, even though 99% of the time I buy only Seasonic or Enermax. Works fine for 6hr gaming sessions with the system in my specs, so I'd say its pretty good.

 

[Digerati]

Yes I understood, basically there is a chance for error in any source,

Yup, absolutely right. And even professional review sites can mess up and in reality, if a professional site gives a rave review, you have to wonder if it is valid. Most, certainly, they try to be unbiased, but we must remember, unless it is Consumer Reports, these review sites are sent the products to review directly from the maker. You can expect some makers will ensure the sample sent has been tested (and maybe tweaked) to give a good performance. That's one reason to look at several sites, and don't rely on just one.

I don't pay too much attention to user reviews either, such as those from Newegg or Tiger Direct customers. Happy people don't complain, and most users don't have the proper skills, test equipment, or comparative products to give a fair review. Now if a bunch of users have the same complaint, indicating a trend or pattern, that's something to take note of.

Consumer Reports, by the way, buys the products off the shelf at normal retail outlets just as you or I would and tests those samples. They also don't take advertising money from any product, including those under review. Sadly, CR does not review individual computer components - only whole computers, monitors and printers.

I bought a Xigmatek, even though 99% of the time I buy only Seasonic or Enermax. Works fine for 6hr gaming sessions with the system in my specs, so I'd say its pretty good.

That's good. Most of review sites said the fan noise was a problem, louder than competing products - how is yours?

 

[Cypress]

I have a stock AMD heatsink, and a 4890, so the 14cm fan doesn't really matter in terms of noise. Great LED's though.