Interpreting back up files

[W. eWatson]

I'm using Backup and Restore. My backup drive is full. If I look at
Manage space, I see several recent bu files. They are of different
sizes. Suppose they are:

50G June
40G July
90G Aug
70G Sept

Some notes there seem to be telling me that I can delete any of the
files. If I delete June, July and Aug, does Sept carry and the data
previously store above it in it?

 

[Paul in Houston TX]

I'm using Backup and Restore. My backup drive is full. If I look at
Manage space, I see several recent bu files. They are of different
sizes. Suppose they are:

50G June
40G July
90G Aug
70G Sept

Some notes there seem to be telling me that I can delete any of the
files. If I delete June, July and Aug, does Sept carry and the data
previously store above it in it?

I have mine set to back up what was on the hdd in Sept.
It does not know what was on the hdd before that and
does not read previous backups to find out.

 

[W. eWatson]

I have mine set to back up what was on the hdd in Sept.
It does not know what was on the hdd before that and
does not read previous backups to find out.

I would have expected a more sophisticated method. That is, each time a
backup occurs it is only a delta from the prior month. That would mean
there's only one backup file.

Suppose I want to restore Aug when I'm in say Oct. What good does that
do me.?

MS documentation on such matters seems woefully light.

 

[Paul]

I would have expected a more sophisticated method. That is, each time a
backup occurs it is only a delta from the prior month. That would mean
there's only one backup file.

Suppose I want to restore Aug when I'm in say Oct. What good does that
do me.?

MS documentation on such matters seems woefully light.

Your backups consist of "full" backups, and things like
"incremental" or "differential" backups. The "full" has the
most data, and is a complete standalone backup.

If you have four full backups, then one full, would defeat
the purpose of the previous full plus set of incrementals.

The Microsoft list, may be listing just the full backups.
With some effort, you may be able to get all backups
listed (with the incrementals indented a bit, to show
their dependency on the other backups).

When the logic in the backup tool, wants to do deletions,
it should remove a full + set of incrementals, leaving
the next most recent full as the base for its set of
incrementals. So when you see just four fulls, it's for
the purpose of showing you what the tool may delete next.
Showing the incrementals, makes sense at the instant in
time, that you choose to do a restoration. During a
restoration, *all* the run dates should show, to show
you all the options you have in terms of restore dates.

I know this was documented somewhere, because I read about it

I manage my own backups manually, and don't rely on the
automation.

*******************************************************

This is a copy/paste of some links I found previously.
The first link, is the article that mentions the
items in the list are "backup sets".

-------
Example of what he's doing, backing up stuff.

http://blogs.technet.com/b/filecab/archive/2009/11/23/managing-backup-disk-space.aspx

The backup disk, can have multiple backup sets on it.

http://blogs.technet.com/blogfiles/...backupdiskspace_14148/clip_image006_thumb.jpg

Setup is described a bit here.

http://blogs.technet.com/b/filecab/archive/2009/10/31/learn-more-about-system-image-backup.aspx

-------
The set of five blogs is:

Protect your files and PC with Windows 7 Backup 23 Oct 2009
http://blogs.technet.com/b/filecab/...-your-files-and-pc-with-windows-7-backup.aspx

Learn more about system image backup 31 Oct 2009
(This is the second post in a blog series on backup and recovery offerings in Windows 7.)
http://blogs.technet.com/b/filecab/archive/2009/10/31/learn-more-about-system-image-backup.aspx

Recovering your files in Windows 7 11 Nov 2009
(This is the third post in a blog series on backup and recovery offerings in Windows 7.)
http://blogs.technet.com/b/filecab/archive/2009/11/12/recovering-your-files-in-windows-7.aspx

Managing backup disk space 22 Nov 2009
(This is the fourth post in a blog series on backup and recovery offerings in Windows 7.)
http://blogs.technet.com/b/filecab/archive/2009/11/23/managing-backup-disk-space.aspx

What to do when your system misbehaves 9 Dec 2009
http://blogs.technet.com/b/filecab/archive/2009/12/09/what-to-do-when-your-system-misbehave.aspx

HTH,
Paul

 

[W. eWatson]

Your backups consist of "full" backups, and things like
"incremental" or "differential" backups. The "full" has the
most data, and is a complete standalone backup.

How would I know an incremental or differential from a full?

If you have four full backups, then one full, would defeat
the purpose of the previous full plus set of incrementals.

I'm not sure I follow this. Why defeat?

The Microsoft list, may be listing just the full backups.
With some effort, you may be able to get all backups
listed (with the incrementals indented a bit, to show
their dependency on the other backups).

I would like to think listing both backups and incrementals should
always be the case. Why disguise the latter?

When the logic in the backup tool, wants to do deletions,
it should remove a full + set of incrementals, leaving
the next most recent full as the base for its set of
incrementals. So when you see just four fulls, it's for

Is there something magic about four? Why not 3 or 7?

the purpose of showing you what the tool may delete next.
Showing the incrementals, makes sense at the instant in
time, that you choose to do a restoration. During a
restoration, *all* the run dates should show, to show
you all the options you have in terms of restore dates.

I know this was documented somewhere, because I read about it

I manage my own backups manually, and don't rely on the
automation.

....

 

[Paul]

How would I know an incremental or differential from a full?
I'm not sure I follow this. Why defeat?
I would like to think listing both backups and incrementals should
always be the case. Why disguise the latter?
Is there something magic about four? Why not 3 or 7?
...

This article shows the nomenclature. At least a little bit.

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/174270-backup-manually-extract-files-vista-windows-7-a.html

I think it's faster for you to just browse through the structure
of the backup folder, than for me to piece it together the
hard way. I don't have backups done the same way as you.
Browsing in there should tell you pretty quickly, how it is wired.

Also, there is some detail, about "reserved space" on a hard
drive, for functions like VSS copying, or for backups. I don't
know if the backup software will allow you to use an entire disk
or not. There may be another rule in place, to prevent the entire
thing from being used. In which case, perhaps the registry can be
used to modify the behavior.

*******

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/615-backup-user-system-files.html

"Windows Backup logs are stored in the .evtx file below.
It will open in Event Viewer when double clicked on.

C:\Windows\System32\winevt\Logs\Microsoft-Windows-Backup.evtx
"

So that may allow you to determine how many times the backup
process has run (incremental or otherwise).

"By default, Windows automatically saves as many system images as
it has space for without taking up more than 30 percent of space
on the backup disk. Once the disk starts running out of room,
Windows deletes older system images. If a system image was created
through Windows Backup instead with the Include a System Image of
Drives box checked (step 9 below), you can set Windows to retain as
many system images as it has space for on the backup disk or to only
keep the most recent system image. You should always keep the most
recent system image. If you are saving your system image on a
network location, you can only keep the most recent system image.
"

You should have data-mined that site first, before posting
your question on there The tutorial section is pretty
rich in information. Not like other sites.

"...4 Hours Ago"
http://www.sevenforums.com/backup-restore/286659-interpreting-backup-restore.html

If I go to Google, I can try something like this:

site:sevenforums.com restore files from a backup

and I can find all sorts of stuff from that site.

Good luck,
Paul

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

I would have expected a more sophisticated method. That is, each time a
backup occurs it is only a delta from the prior month. That would mean
there's only one backup file.

Not so. It would mean that you have the file from the previous month
plus a file containing the delta (by which I assume you mean
incremental) data, as well as some information to coordinate the two
files.

That's assuming the previous month was a full backup. If it was an
incremental backup, you'd have three or more files - the initial (full)
backup and an incremental file for each monthly BU after that.

 

[W. eWatson]

Let's try this. I open B&R, and get a dialog. There are three choices:
Browse, View Backups, and Change Settings. Browse gets me to the root of
my BU drive-L:. Why would I care to do that? Change Settings deals with
Images. I'm not interested in that now. View allows me to see BUs (I
would think) and delete them. All these choices are pretty limiting. No
mention of incrementals or differences anywhere.

OK,so I chased down Paul's Link
<http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/615-backup-user-system-files.html>
"Manually Extract Files from a Backup". It doesn't seem to fit this
discussion (I'm not interested in extracting), but there's a list of
tutorials at the bottom. I follow "Backup User and System Files".

I see Notes and Information. This seems to be taking some manual or DOS
aura. I skip down to Here's How. it provides steps, which calls into
play my backup drive, L:. The text wants me to look at Properties of L:.

This seems to take me off into another galaxy. What happened to the
dialog approach I mentioned above?

 

[Paul]

Let's try this. I open B&R, and get a dialog. There are three choices:
Browse, View Backups, and Change Settings. Browse gets me to the root of
my BU drive-L:. Why would I care to do that? Change Settings deals with
Images. I'm not interested in that now. View allows me to see BUs (I
would think) and delete them. All these choices are pretty limiting. No
mention of incrementals or differences anywhere.

OK,so I chased down Paul's Link
<http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/615-backup-user-system-files.html>
"Manually Extract Files from a Backup". It doesn't seem to fit this
discussion (I'm not interested in extracting), but there's a list of
tutorials at the bottom. I follow "Backup User and System Files".

I see Notes and Information. This seems to be taking some manual or DOS
aura. I skip down to Here's How. it provides steps, which calls into
play my backup drive, L:. The text wants me to look at Properties of L:.

This seems to take me off into another galaxy. What happened to the
dialog approach I mentioned above?

The purpose of me showing you that article, was to show that
backup periods, backup sets and the like, are stored systematically.
You can browse the backup folder, and see how the information is
arranged (the structure, how the folders correspond to your four
current entries, whether full and incrementals are stored inside
the four folders, or whatever - it's faster to just look in there,
than for me to guess at it from 60,000 feet).

For example, you claim your backup dialog shows four backup sets
currently. You could visit the folders in question, determine if
there are four major folders, determine if there are some kind
of ZIP-file-like incremental backup files present in there, and
so on. The tutorials discuss some of the things you might find.
The contents of the backup folder, are not named in a descriptive
way, such as "I'm a full backup", "I'm Tuesday's incremental", but
you may be able to piece the information together, by inspection.

*******

On your backup drive L;, perhaps the backups currently use 30%
of the disk (300GB of a 1000GB disk). You claim that Windows
won't allow more than four backup sets. Perhaps the limitation
is based on the space available.

The 30% number, could be related to the Volume Shadow setting
on the L: drive.

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/335-system-protection-change-disk-space-usage.html

You can check the ShadowStorage from DOS, like this

http://www.sevenforums.com/attachme...tion-change-disk-space-usage-cmd_multiple.jpg

vssadmin list shadowstorage

and see whether the 300GB limit might be based on the setting
in there.

When the backup space is "Windows Managed", it's subject to
not using the whole disk by default. But you can experiment
with the size setting, like this.

vssadmin Resize ShadowStorage /For=L: /On=L: /Maxsize=50%

Pick a percentage which is *larger* than the limit you
currently see in the "list" output. See if that allows
a fifth backup set to fit in.

So while the backup folder tree, may contain a lot of
the information used for backups, the actual space limitation
may be set elsewhere, using vssadmin.

Paul

 

[W. eWatson]

The purpose of me showing you that article, was to show that
backup periods, backup sets and the like, are stored systematically.
You can browse the backup folder, and see how the information is
arranged (the structure, how the folders correspond to your four
current entries, whether full and incrementals are stored inside
the four folders, or whatever - it's faster to just look in there,
than for me to guess at it from 60,000 feet).

For example, you claim your backup dialog shows four backup sets
currently. You could visit the folders in question, determine if
there are four major folders, determine if there are some kind
of ZIP-file-like incremental backup files present in there, and
so on. The tutorials discuss some of the things you might find.
The contents of the backup folder, are not named in a descriptive
way, such as "I'm a full backup", "I'm Tuesday's incremental", but
you may be able to piece the information together, by inspection.

*******

On your backup drive L;, perhaps the backups currently use 30%
of the disk (300GB of a 1000GB disk). You claim that Windows
won't allow more than four backup sets. Perhaps the limitation
is based on the space available.

The 30% number, could be related to the Volume Shadow setting
on the L: drive.

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/335-system-protection-change-disk-space-usage.html


You can check the ShadowStorage from DOS, like this

http://www.sevenforums.com/attachme...tion-change-disk-space-usage-cmd_multiple.jpg


vssadmin list shadowstorage

and see whether the 300GB limit might be based on the setting
in there.

When the backup space is "Windows Managed", it's subject to
not using the whole disk by default. But you can experiment
with the size setting, like this.

vssadmin Resize ShadowStorage /For=L: /On=L: /Maxsize=50%

Pick a percentage which is *larger* than the limit you
currently see in the "list" output. See if that allows
a fifth backup set to fit in.

So while the backup folder tree, may contain a lot of
the information used for backups, the actual space limitation
may be set elsewhere, using vssadmin.

Paul

Yes, at 60K this would make anyone dizzy.

All this is well and good, but it seems to me this product is way
outside the bounds of understandability to a common user. I think I'm
going to head down to my local computer shop and ask them a few
questions. Maybe I should use Carbonite.

I think I'm going to put this on pause while I ponder all this. Thanks
for your help.

 

[Paul]

Yes, at 60K this would make anyone dizzy.

All this is well and good, but it seems to me this product is way
outside the bounds of understandability to a common user. I think I'm
going to head down to my local computer shop and ask them a few
questions. Maybe I should use Carbonite.

I think I'm going to put this on pause while I ponder all this. Thanks
for your help.

The same problem exists for any backup product.

The disk pool has limited space. Logically, the oldest
backup should be the one that gets tossed. But not everybody
wants it that way.

Some people do yearly, monthly, weekly, and they may wish
to keep a yearly, for archive purposes, rather than backup
purposes. If you're doing that, you should be absolutely
clear about your intentions. If I needed to keep both
archival copies (historical) and backups (catastrophe insurance),
two separate kinds of stores, I'd probably use two different tools.
I could use the free Macrium Reflect, to make archival copies (say,
once a year). I could use the automated Windows backup,
to keep a series of rolling backups, suitable for
undoing a (recent) catastrophe.

(Macrium Reflect Free - download link near bottom left)

http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx

I have used much more complicated backup products. I used
one, where you could control everything. It only took two
solid days of work, to program it all (some of the backup
partition requests were failing, and it took time to debug).
This was a backup product, used by our IT department at work,
for some of our computers (not all of them). Every computer was
backed up at work. Laptops get backed up, when they are
connected to the LAN. Only a traveling salesman, out on
the road for too long, lacks backups. The only problem with
our system (tape based back end, in another country), is
the time it took to request a restore. Worst case was
two weeks! And no, they don't mail the tapes. It's
all done over the "tubes" of the Internet. What happened,
was a large number of computers failed at the same time,
so they were backlogged (power company sent a transient
through the power lines, it broke my computer at work).

Paul