Old style keyboards

Discussion in 'alt.windows7.general' started by Bettablue, Feb 27, 2011.

  1. Bettablue

    Bettablue Guest

    I am the proud new owner of a vintage 1987 IBM model M keyboard with 2 piece
    keys, a detachable 7 foot cable terminating with a PS2 connector, very nice
    buckling spring key design and very clicky sound and a wonderful tactile
    feel. It was made before windows ever came out so mine doesn't have the
    dreaded "Windows" keys. I remapped the left "Control" key to act as a
    "Windows" key and that works great. The keyboard is in like new condition
    and is undoubtedly the best keyboard I have ever had the pleasure of using
    since my days in college some 24 years ago. I was surprised that it worked
    as soon as I plugged it into the PS2 connector, but on my wife's computer,
    running Windows 7, it won't register using a PS2 to USB adapter. I guess I
    got lucky when I built my new computer as the motherboard still has two PS2
    connections; one for a mouse and the other to connect a keyboard. I plan on
    using the model M keyboard o along with a Logitech M505 wireless mouse. Are
    there any drivers associated to this keyboard or do I need to get some sort
    of PS2 to USB converter. I know there is a difference between an adapter
    and converter, but I just wonder if the power requirements are so different
    that I'll have to do something drastic to get my keyboard to work on USB.
    The model M can easily draw more than ten times the power that a USB can
    supply and so I was also wondering if drawing that much power will cause
    problems with other USB devices connected to the bus. Please don't tell me
    to get a Unicomp keyboard. I know all about them. Unicomp keyboards are
    nice, but not nearly the same quality as the vintage IBM keyboards. By the
    way, while I'm on the subject. Does anyone here have an old Lexmark made
    model M keyboard in black that either works or not that I can purchase for
    the keys? I want to do a key swap for a slightly different look.

    Any opinions?
     
    Bettablue, Feb 27, 2011
    #1
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  2. Bettablue

    charlie Guest

    On 2/27/2011 3:25 AM, Bettablue wrote:
    > I am the proud new owner of a vintage 1987 IBM model M keyboard with 2
    > piece keys, a detachable 7 foot cable terminating with a PS2 connector,
    > very nice buckling spring key design and very clicky sound and a
    > wonderful tactile feel. It was made before windows ever came out so mine
    > doesn't have the dreaded "Windows" keys. I remapped the left "Control"
    > key to act as a "Windows" key and that works great. The keyboard is in
    > like new condition and is undoubtedly the best keyboard I have ever had
    > the pleasure of using since my days in college some 24 years ago. I was
    > surprised that it worked as soon as I plugged it into the PS2 connector,
    > but on my wife's computer, running Windows 7, it won't register using a
    > PS2 to USB adapter. I guess I got lucky when I built my new computer as
    > the motherboard still has two PS2 connections; one for a mouse and the
    > other to connect a keyboard. I plan on using the model M keyboard o
    > along with a Logitech M505 wireless mouse. Are there any drivers
    > associated to this keyboard or do I need to get some sort of PS2 to USB
    > converter. I know there is a difference between an adapter and
    > converter, but I just wonder if the power requirements are so different
    > that I'll have to do something drastic to get my keyboard to work on
    > USB. The model M can easily draw more than ten times the power that a
    > USB can supply and so I was also wondering if drawing that much power
    > will cause problems with other USB devices connected to the bus. Please
    > don't tell me to get a Unicomp keyboard. I know all about them. Unicomp
    > keyboards are nice, but not nearly the same quality as the vintage IBM
    > keyboards. By the way, while I'm on the subject. Does anyone here have
    > an old Lexmark made model M keyboard in black that either works or not
    > that I can purchase for the keys? I want to do a key swap for a slightly
    > different look.
    >
    > Any opinions?


    Use it with a PS2 port only would be my preference. Forget the USB bit
    unless you have a way to get it to run through an adapter and a powered
    USB hub. A friend did something similar, without the powered hub, and
    killed a USB port on his wife's laptop.

    Long ago, I tried this using old PS2 style keyboards, and ran into
    problems with the data rate from the keyboards. The keyboards that I was
    messing with used the larger PS2 connector, and were from 286/386 era
    P/Cs. I always thought that the clicky sound was to give management an
    impression of busy little worker bees.

    My favorite keyboards were those used on various HP minicomputer
    terminals made before 1990. The HP5340 terminals were actually
    microcomputers using 8080 and Z80 processors.
     
    charlie, Feb 27, 2011
    #2
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  3. Bettablue

    Paul Guest

    Bettablue wrote:
    > I am the proud new owner of a vintage 1987 IBM model M keyboard with 2
    > piece keys, a detachable 7 foot cable terminating with a PS2 connector,
    > very nice buckling spring key design and very clicky sound and a
    > wonderful tactile feel. It was made before windows ever came out so mine
    > doesn't have the dreaded "Windows" keys. I remapped the left "Control"
    > key to act as a "Windows" key and that works great. The keyboard is in
    > like new condition and is undoubtedly the best keyboard I have ever had
    > the pleasure of using since my days in college some 24 years ago. I was
    > surprised that it worked as soon as I plugged it into the PS2 connector,
    > but on my wife's computer, running Windows 7, it won't register using a
    > PS2 to USB adapter. I guess I got lucky when I built my new computer as
    > the motherboard still has two PS2 connections; one for a mouse and the
    > other to connect a keyboard. I plan on using the model M keyboard o
    > along with a Logitech M505 wireless mouse. Are there any drivers
    > associated to this keyboard or do I need to get some sort of PS2 to USB
    > converter. I know there is a difference between an adapter and
    > converter, but I just wonder if the power requirements are so different
    > that I'll have to do something drastic to get my keyboard to work on
    > USB. The model M can easily draw more than ten times the power that a
    > USB can supply and so I was also wondering if drawing that much power
    > will cause problems with other USB devices connected to the bus. Please
    > don't tell me to get a Unicomp keyboard. I know all about them.
    > Unicomp keyboards are nice, but not nearly the same quality as the
    > vintage IBM keyboards. By the way, while I'm on the subject. Does
    > anyone here have an old Lexmark made model M keyboard in black that
    > either works or not that I can purchase for the keys? I want to do a
    > key swap for a slightly different look.
    >
    > Any opinions?


    There is a claim in the Feedback section here, that this adapter works
    with a Model M.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812816060

    "Ivan
    3/11/2009 9:26:19 PM

    IBM Model M keyboard requires quite a lot more current from the
    PS/2 than other modern keyboards. I tried several USB to PS/2
    connectors until this one works."

    Keyboard matrix scanner chips don't typically draw a lot of power.
    But being IBM, who knows what whiz bang hardware is inside there.
    All it really needs, is a single, low power, matrix scanner. 100mA
    should be enough to do it.

    The reason I learned a little bit about keyboards, is I built a
    keyboard from scratch for my first computer. And even then, they
    had single chip scanners. Mine had an eight bit output (non-PS/2)
    and a ribbon cable as an interface. It was eight bits plus strobe.
    You pressed a key, and the strobe would pulse.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Feb 27, 2011
    #3
  4. Bettablue

    XS11E Guest

    XS11E, Feb 27, 2011
    #4
  5. Bettablue

    Sunny Bard Guest

    Bettablue wrote:

    > I am the proud new owner of a vintage 1987 IBM model M keyboard
    > do I need to get some sort of PS2 to USB converter.


    You do, and with a Model M you need to choose the adapter carefully
    because the keyboard has a substantially higher power consumption than
    more modern PS/2 keyboards ...

    <http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11298/subcatid/0/id/124184>
     
    Sunny Bard, Feb 27, 2011
    #5
  6. Bettablue

    Guest

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 00:25:46 -0800, "Bettablue"
    <> wrote:

    >I am the proud new owner of a vintage 1987 IBM model M keyboard with 2 piece
    >keys, a detachable 7 foot cable terminating with a PS2 connector, very nice
    >buckling spring key design and very clicky sound and a wonderful tactile
    >feel. It was made before windows ever came out so mine doesn't have the
    >dreaded "Windows" keys. I remapped the left "Control" key to act as a
    >"Windows" key and that works great. The keyboard is in like new condition
    >and is undoubtedly the best keyboard I have ever had the pleasure of using
    >since my days in college some 24 years ago. I was surprised that it worked
    >as soon as I plugged it into the PS2 connector, but on my wife's computer,
    >running Windows 7, it won't register using a PS2 to USB adapter. I guess I
    >got lucky when I built my new computer as the motherboard still has two PS2
    >connections; one for a mouse and the other to connect a keyboard. I plan on
    >using the model M keyboard o along with a Logitech M505 wireless mouse. Are
    >there any drivers associated to this keyboard or do I need to get some sort
    >of PS2 to USB converter. I know there is a difference between an adapter
    >and converter, but I just wonder if the power requirements are so different
    >that I'll have to do something drastic to get my keyboard to work on USB.
    >The model M can easily draw more than ten times the power that a USB can
    >supply and so I was also wondering if drawing that much power will cause
    >problems with other USB devices connected to the bus. Please don't tell me
    >to get a Unicomp keyboard. I know all about them. Unicomp keyboards are
    >nice, but not nearly the same quality as the vintage IBM keyboards. By the
    >way, while I'm on the subject. Does anyone here have an old Lexmark made
    >model M keyboard in black that either works or not that I can purchase for
    >the keys? I want to do a key swap for a slightly different look.
    >
    >Any opinions?



    You could go to this company that bought all of the old IBM specs and
    equipment to make new keyboards, including one with a native USB
    connector:

    http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html
     
    , Feb 27, 2011
    #6
  7. Bettablue

    Paul Guest

    Sunny Bard wrote:
    > Bettablue wrote:
    >
    >> I am the proud new owner of a vintage 1987 IBM model M keyboard
    >> do I need to get some sort of PS2 to USB converter.

    >
    > You do, and with a Model M you need to choose the adapter carefully
    > because the keyboard has a substantially higher power consumption than
    > more modern PS/2 keyboards ...
    >
    > <http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11298/subcatid/0/id/124184>


    The chip shown in the picture, is an actual processor of some kind.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20040103081624/www.geocities.com/jszybowski/keyboard/KeyPCB1.jpg

    http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/680x/SGS-Thomson-EF6805U3P-B.html

    According to one datasheet for it, it's supposed to draw 0.5W, which
    could be 5V @ 100mA (and that's with no loading on the processor
    parallel ports). The other bit of current is likely drawn by
    the interface chip, which looks like Fairchild FAST logic.

    It's hard to believe a 112mA load would break things.

    Regular keyboard matrix chips, don't have a processor inside. But you
    can certainly use an 8 bit micro, to make a fake keyboard scanner,
    which looks like what they did.

    *******

    In fact, the USB to dual PS/2 adapter thing, has a processor inside
    the "blob". The first ones of those, were horrible, because the
    processor seemed to have a firmware bug. It took a while, until
    they fixed it. The first adapters of that kind, would hang up after
    about ten minutes usage.

    In this picture, the 18 pin chip on the left, is the dual PS/2 to USB
    chip, which contains its own processor and firmware.

    http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/15-150-153-S02?$S640$

    And this page reminds me, the chip was made by Chesen.

    http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=PS2-to-USB adapters

    Chesen chip for USB to dual PS/2. Draws 20mA. This is the latest
    version. 6KB of firmware. 256 bytes of RAM storage.

    http://www.chesen.com.tw/p3-products-CSC0101A.asp

    It's amazing how many processors it takes, to get a keypress
    inside a computer...

    Paul
     
    Paul, Feb 27, 2011
    #7
  8. Bettablue

    Bettablue Guest

    wrote in message news:...

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 00:25:46 -0800, "Bettablue"
    <> wrote:

    >I am the proud new owner of a vintage 1987 IBM model M keyboard with 2
    >piece
    >keys, a detachable 7 foot cable terminating with a PS2 connector, very nice
    >buckling spring key design and very clicky sound and a wonderful tactile
    >feel. It was made before windows ever came out so mine doesn't have the
    >dreaded "Windows" keys. I remapped the left "Control" key to act as a
    >"Windows" key and that works great. The keyboard is in like new condition
    >and is undoubtedly the best keyboard I have ever had the pleasure of using
    >since my days in college some 24 years ago. I was surprised that it worked
    >as soon as I plugged it into the PS2 connector, but on my wife's computer,
    >running Windows 7, it won't register using a PS2 to USB adapter. I guess I
    >got lucky when I built my new computer as the motherboard still has two PS2
    >connections; one for a mouse and the other to connect a keyboard. I plan
    >on
    >using the model M keyboard o along with a Logitech M505 wireless mouse.
    >Are
    >there any drivers associated to this keyboard or do I need to get some sort
    >of PS2 to USB converter. I know there is a difference between an adapter
    >and converter, but I just wonder if the power requirements are so different
    >that I'll have to do something drastic to get my keyboard to work on USB.
    >The model M can easily draw more than ten times the power that a USB can
    >supply and so I was also wondering if drawing that much power will cause
    >problems with other USB devices connected to the bus. Please don't tell me
    >to get a Unicomp keyboard. I know all about them. Unicomp keyboards are
    >nice, but not nearly the same quality as the vintage IBM keyboards. By the
    >way, while I'm on the subject. Does anyone here have an old Lexmark made
    >model M keyboard in black that either works or not that I can purchase for
    >the keys? I want to do a key swap for a slightly different look.
    >
    >Any opinions?



    You could go to this company that bought all of the old IBM specs and
    equipment to make new keyboards, including one with a native USB
    connector:

    http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html


    I know there are many kinds of adapters for using the model M keyboard with
    USB on new computers. In fact I am planning on getting a couple of the blue
    cube ones that are recommended on Geek Hack. I wonder though, if USB
    updates are going to affect the performance of these older boards as newer
    and better version of USB are introduced. It seems that these older boards
    are virtually everywhere. So, it also begs the question if some time down
    the road, these old model M keyboards will suddenly be incompatible with
    newer systems. Already, desktop computers are pretty much on the decline as
    far as popularity is concerned. Lap top and net top computers are filling
    the marketplace. Is the writing on the wall for these old keyboards? I
    would hate to think so.
     
    Bettablue, Mar 2, 2011
    #8
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