Incremental backup takes 3-4 hours.

[John]

I have repeated problems with backups taking a very long time. It does not
appear to be an incremental backup and it also appears that each backup adds
many Gb to the external drive.

I can correct the problem only by reformatting the backup drive and do a
complete backup (from scratch). When completed, I can do backups which take
only 20-30 minutes. Makes me happy. Suddenly, all backup attempts takes 3-4
hours.

This problem has happened many times. I am beginning to wonder if MS auto
updates causes some weird hiccup.

Anyone else experience this problem?

John

 

[Char Jackson]

I have repeated problems with backups taking a very long time. It does not
appear to be an incremental backup and it also appears that each backup adds
many Gb to the external drive.

I can correct the problem only by reformatting the backup drive and do a
complete backup (from scratch). When completed, I can do backups which take
only 20-30 minutes. Makes me happy. Suddenly, all backup attempts takes 3-4
hours.

This problem has happened many times. I am beginning to wonder if MS auto
updates causes some weird hiccup.

Anyone else experience this problem?

Do you mean with any random backup program or with the same program that you
use? I use Acronis True Image and don't have the problem you described.

In case you're using the Windows 7 built in backup program, and you find
that it's not working the way you'd like, be advised that there are many
alternatives out there, some of which are free and many of which simply work
better.

 

[John]

I am using the backup/restore software contained in Win7.

"Char Jackson" wrote in message

I have repeated problems with backups taking a very long time. It does not
appear to be an incremental backup and it also appears that each backup
adds
many Gb to the external drive.

I can correct the problem only by reformatting the backup drive and do a
complete backup (from scratch). When completed, I can do backups which take
only 20-30 minutes. Makes me happy. Suddenly, all backup attempts takes 3-4
hours.

This problem has happened many times. I am beginning to wonder if MS auto
updates causes some weird hiccup.

Anyone else experience this problem?

Do you mean with any random backup program or with the same program that you
use? I use Acronis True Image and don't have the problem you described.

In case you're using the Windows 7 built in backup program, and you find
that it's not working the way you'd like, be advised that there are many
alternatives out there, some of which are free and many of which simply work
better.

 

[VanguardLH]

I have repeated problems with backups taking a very long time. It does not
appear to be an incremental backup and it also appears that each backup adds
many Gb to the external drive.

I can correct the problem only by reformatting the backup drive and do a
complete backup (from scratch). When completed, I can do backups which take
only 20-30 minutes. Makes me happy. Suddenly, all backup attempts takes 3-4
hours.

This problem has happened many times. I am beginning to wonder if MS auto
updates causes some weird hiccup.

Make sure you have not scheduled a disk defrag to run before you
scheduled a backup job. Similarly, don't enable a defrag operation
while the computer is idle or when the screen saver activates (i.e.,
background defragmentation). An image backup tracks changes to the
partition and defrag moves around the clusters within a partition.

http://kb.acronis.com/content/15479

Some products claim that a defrag will not affect the size of their
incremental backups yet testing has shown otherwise. You don't say
WHOSE backup program you are using. Image backups are sensitive to
moving around the sectors in the partition to backup. Logical backups
(file backups) are not. Some products only do image backups, some only
do file backups, and some can do both (you decide when you define the
backup job). In the past, the backup program included in Windows for
was a file backup program. For Windows 7, it will do image backups for
system protection and file backups for regular data protection. Since
it's likely you're doing data backups (and assuming you're asking about
the backup program included in Windows versus some 3rd party app) then
the incremental backup will include any files that have been created or
changed since the prior backup.

Look at your backups to see what files are being included. Maybe there
are a whole bunch of files that have been newly created since your prior
full or incremental backup job. If most of the bloat is coming from
files that have existed before but you don't recall changing then go
look at them in Windows Explorer and check their Modified datestamp to
see if it is after the prior backup job.

Incremental backups do not save just the changed portion of files.
Deltas for files (just their changed portion) are not saved in an
incremental backup. The ENTIRE file gets backed up. If a file has been
changed (touched, updated, or anything that set the 'archive' file
attribute) then it becomes eligible for inclusion in an incremental
backup. If the 'archive' file attribute has been cleared, as is
performed when the file gets backed up, then the file is omitted in a
backup (it hasn't changed since the prior backup).

To see the attributes on a file, open a command shell and run:

attrib [<path>]<filename>

The "A" means the archive attribute is set, its absence means it is not
set. Archive = set means changed so eligible for inclusion in backup.

Read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archive_bit

Image backups, on the other hand, monitor changes in sectors. A file
whose sectors have been moved around means sectors have changed their
content so they are eligible for inclusion in an image backup. Sectors
whose content have changed are also eligible for inclusion.

 

[Metspitzer]

I have repeated problems with backups taking a very long time. It does not
appear to be an incremental backup and it also appears that each backup adds
many Gb to the external drive.

I can correct the problem only by reformatting the backup drive and do a
complete backup (from scratch). When completed, I can do backups which take
only 20-30 minutes. Makes me happy. Suddenly, all backup attempts takes 3-4
hours.

This problem has happened many times. I am beginning to wonder if MS auto
updates causes some weird hiccup.

Anyone else experience this problem?

John

I bet it is backing up temporary files too. Have you tried deleting
temporary files before trying to backup?

 

[John]

I do NOT run a defrag prior to backup
I am using backup/restore in Win7

I tracked my last backup attempt and saw that it was 65 minutes into
"backup" and was only 28% completed. I also saw it appeared to be copying
program files from my applications. It should not be doing that if it was
truly incremental. Maybe it was doing an IMAGE backup. But why?

I checked several files for attributes. I noticed that many MS IntelliPoint
files has had several versions since the last backup. Hmmm

I have MS updates performed automatically. Since my last backup, there have
been several thousand "updates" installed by MS.

Thanks for your inputs. I am still confused.

John

 

[Paul]

I do NOT run a defrag prior to backup
I am using backup/restore in Win7

I tracked my last backup attempt and saw that it was 65 minutes into
"backup" and was only 28% completed. I also saw it appeared to be
copying program files from my applications. It should not be doing that
if it was truly incremental. Maybe it was doing an IMAGE backup. But why?

I checked several files for attributes. I noticed that many MS
IntelliPoint files has had several versions since the last backup. Hmmm

I have MS updates performed automatically. Since my last backup, there
have been several thousand "updates" installed by MS.

Thanks for your inputs. I am still confused.

John

Is something changing modification dates on the files ?

Files have three dates as far as I know, "Created", "Modified", "Last Accessed",
with the Last Accessed feature being able to be disabled. "Modified" might
be the date used to determine whether to backup a file after a full
is done.

Does the backup scheme, use an attribute bit to track
whether a file has been backed up ?

Some part of the tracking method, is broken.

Any process that likes to "scan all the files", might
be a culprit. AV programs do that. The Indexer for search
visits all files. Even the backup program visits all files.
Think about any other programs you use, that might be
prone to visit all files, and consider whether such a
program is actually "messing with the files" (rewriting them).
Even a second backup program, might be an offender (i.e. run
two backup programs, one backup program screws up the
status the other backup program uses to track progress).

Paul

 

[VanguardLH]

I tracked my last backup attempt and saw that it was 65 minutes into
"backup" and was only 28% completed. I also saw it appeared to be copying
program files from my applications. It should not be doing that if it was
truly incremental. Maybe it was doing an IMAGE backup. But why?

Are you doing a "system image" or "data" backup? The only reason that I
see for the app files (executables) to be included in a backup (and that
have not been modified since the prior backup) is that they are now
considered part of the "system" to get recovered. A system backup has
to get the system backup and that could mean restoring all the app
files, too.

According to the video at:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Back-up-your-programs-system-settings-and-files

a "system" backup is an image backup and DOES include your programs
(applications' executable files). Sounds like what you really want is a
data backup.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/ee872304.aspx
"Windows 7 can automatically create both personal data backups and
system image backups. Personal data backups are used to periodically
back up pictures, music, videos, e-mail, documents, and other types of
important files. System image back¬ups are used to periodically back up
the system drive, the boot drive, and other drives required for Windows
to run."
....
"- Select Let Windows Choose if you want to back up all personal data in
user profile folders and libraries and also create a system image.
- Select Let Me Choose if you want to select personal and system data
to back up."

 

[John]

I just discovered that a "Defrag" is scheduled on a weekly basis. I have no
idea how the defrag program was initiated. It also defrags ALL disks,
including the "BACKUP" disk. Perhaps this was (is ) one of the auto updates
from MS that I did not catch.

The problem may be solved. I now know that a defrag is automatically run on
a weekly basis. I will defeat this application and do a complete backup.

John

 

[Jason]

I just discovered that a "Defrag" is scheduled on a weekly basis. I have no
idea how the defrag program was initiated. It also defrags ALL disks,
including the "BACKUP" disk. Perhaps this was (is ) one of the auto updates
from MS that I did not catch.

The problem may be solved. I now know that a defrag is automatically run on
a weekly basis. I will defeat this application and do a complete backup.

John

I've used Acronis and other image backup programs for years AND
defragment the disks occasionally. I have NOT seen the issue mentioned in
the Acronis KB article cited above. In fact, just to see, I defragmented
C: and then did an incremental backup - I'd done one yesterday - and the
backup was quite small even though defrag had moved a LOT of files. (I
did a Complete defrag - rarely do that - so that nearly every file got
touched.)

 

[Jason]

I bet it is backing up temporary files too. Have you tried deleting
temporary files before trying to backup?

That's a good point. Try ccleaner.

 

[VanguardLH]

I've used Acronis and other image backup programs for years AND
defragment the disks occasionally. I have NOT seen the issue mentioned in
the Acronis KB article cited above. In fact, just to see, I defragmented
C: and then did an incremental backup - I'd done one yesterday - and the
backup was quite small even though defrag had moved a LOT of files. (I
did a Complete defrag - rarely do that - so that nearly every file got
touched.)

I think the generic term is "smart sector moving" (every vendor probably
uses a different name for this). The backup program sees the sector got
moved but sees its content didn't change. It can record just the sector
move rather than record what all was in that sector.

You didn't mention which version of TrueImage Home that you use. I kept
using v9 (circa 2005) since it remain a viable backup solution -- until
it stopped working (after I added SATA drives to mix in with IDE drives
on the old mobo with an early SATA controller that Acronis didn't like
during the verify phase of backups). I had to move to other backup
software that would work on my old hardware. That old version of TI
Home *did* generate much larger backups after a defrag. I can't find
that old forum discussion but, as I recall, others claimed to perform
the same test and notice little increase in the size of an incremental
backup.

I was using the Auslogics Disk Defrag, not the one included in Windows
(which won't move as much as 3rd party alternatives: 0% in Windows
defrag is far higher in all other defraggers). I don't remember what
defraggers the others were using that claimed their incremental backups
did not get larger after a defrag. Also, even using the quick-method
GUI defrag in Windows (the one in the Start menu and which runs as a
snap-in within the MMC program) results in *far less* movement than
using the defrag.exe command-line program, so when users noted they were
using the Windows defrag it was unclear which one they were using. If
using the quick-method defragger, not much got moved so there would be
little to track in the imaging program. Also, in my testing, I
deliberately SWITCHED between defraggers to force a large move of
sectors. You can't defrag with one and then expect much to change by
the time during the testing when you defrag again using the same one.
Switching to a different defragger on each defrag operation employs
different algorithms each believes is the better layout and results in
much more movement. A zero-percent defragged drive reported by one
defragger will still result in lots of movement in another defragger
whose algorithm sees perhaps not so much fragmentation but instead where
files are "better" placed on the platters. I think the real problem
between me saying an incremental after a defrag could result in a huge
backup file versus the others is that the others incurred little
movement in their defrags.

The incremental backup after a defrag wasn't as large as a full image
backup but it was a lot larger than an incremental backup where there
had been no defrag since the prior backup. Since I stopped using
Acronis stuff for a few years now, I don't know if they incorporated
"smart sector moving" detection which would reduce how much had to get
backed up (since the content of the moved sector didn't change) but
still track the movement of sectors.

I found a forum discussion when I was using Easeus Todo Workstation
(http://forum.easeus.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=24643&p=49324&hilit=defrag#p49324)
for image backups (fulls and incrementals). Here I tested a "full
backup, no defrag, incremental" versus "full, defrag, incremental" and
noted the difference in the incremental backup sizes. Instead of 28MB
for the incremental backup, the incremental after a defrag was 10GB in
size (a full backup was 16GB). So the incremental got far more huge
after a defrag.

Which backup product you use, which version of it, how it handles
unchanged but moved sectors, and which defragger you use (and how much
it actually moves) can probably all affect the outcome.