Can I do this easily in Linux?

[msdos622wasfun]

Hi everyone.

I've seen some conversations in this forum that centered around Linux, so I thought I'd pose a question to see if I could get some feedback from anyone who might be in the know.

Let me start off by saying that this post is not an attempt to start an OS flame war. I truly want to get a discussion going that hopefully will raise more awareness of why some of us continue to stick with Windows instead of adopting Linux as their only OS (and by the same token, encourage Linux developers to pay more attention to what could be done to address some of the platform's shortcomings).

I'd also like to point out that I've used Linux before. I tried several distributions until I finally settled with Ubuntu. There are many aspects of Linux that I like, and I think it's come a long way. But I admit, right now it is no longer installed on my system.

Here's what I want to address: I am an amateur/hobbyist musician. Right now I have a very nice setup that, for me, works great. I am using Sonar, which is a MIDI/audio recording package from Cakewalk. It is an extremely robust and easy-to-use piece of software. The hardware I am using to enter/input MIDI and audio into my PC is an E-MU USB MIDI and audio interface. On top of that, I am using a software synthesizer plug-in (also by Cakewalk) known as Dimension, which incorporates a huge library of sounds for almost any purpose. This is all being done with Windows 7 x64; it was easy to set up, and it works wonderfully.

The question I have is, could I achieve this exact same level of capability under Linux, and would it be just as easy to configure? Is there software available under Linux that rivals commercial applications such as Sonar? What about the driver situation? Is there a guarantee that somehow I could get my E-MU device to be recognized?

If you ask me -- and this my VERY humble opinion -- this is the kind of area where Linux needs some improvement. I admit I'm not the world's foremost authority on computer science, but I am more than just a little computer literate. Still, I have limits. Forgive me if this sounds a little sarcastic, but sometimes people are more interested in getting their computer to actually do something, without a lot of hassle, and without performing surgery on their operating systems in order to get it to work. Audio production seems to be one of those kinds of tasks, and since I can do it so easily under Windows, that's why I have a hard time letting go of it (the same can probably also be said about Macs and OS X).

I was tempted to post this in a Linux advocacy newsgroup, but I'm afraid to, basically because most of what I see in groups like that are insults being thrown back and forth. The last thing I need is to be told what a noob I am for not being a certified operating system genius, or for not knowing how to take open-source code and design my own MIDI recording suite.

What are your thoughts?

 

[davehc]

"I was tempted to post this in a Linux advocacy newsgroup, but I'm afraid to, basically because most of what I see in groups like that are insults being thrown back and forth. The last thing I need is to be told what a noob I am for not being a certified operating system genius, or for not knowing how to take open-source code and design my own MIDI recording suite."
LOL. I know what you mean! This is a very friendly site, but you can get the same reaction in some non linux places.
I am sure you will get some offers from our linux users (I am not), but you could also try one of the more general sites, which cover linux as well as other topics. Bit the bullet and dive in.
I hope Ian will not consider it spamming, if I suggest one to which I have belonged for many years. If you get "flamed",a moderator, or other members, will quickly kick in.
http://forums.techguy.org/
Ian. Feel free to remove this link if you wish.

 

[TrainableMan]

Drivers. including sound drivers, and device drivers has always been a short-coming of linux because of the vast assortment of parts and the small user base, companies just did not market nor support a linux OS. This has changed greatly as the user base has grown with the ever improving OS GUI. Will you find drivers for your "fringe" devices, I don't know, I doubt the windows market share on your products is very high let aknown them developing linux drivers too - but with unique needs comes a higher price tag & more money means capital to improve & develop so you might get lucky.

Go to the website for your devices/products and see if they offer linux drivers, as I wouldn't count on linux to include them.

 

[catilley1092]

Mint is improving with every release, and their version 9 x64 kicks butt! But you do need patience (and some luck on your side, too) to fine tune it for everything. What the problem is, it's not Linux itself, it's often the hardware manufacturers that doesn't provide Linux drivers. Although that's improving a lot, too. Most recent printers and wireless routers works fine with many Linux OS's. I enjoy Mint for it's sheer speed and security, there's over 20,000 software apps in their software portal, my only problem with using it exclusively is this, downloads are a pain in the butt to apply. If you can do all of your work from within the box, it's a fantastic OS. But many comes back to MS, for various reasons. One of which is Open Office. If you ever got used to MS Office, Open Office is toilet tissue, plain & simple. And games, Linux doesn't touch MS on gaming at all.

But if what you're looking for is a nice, fast, secure and good looking OS to do web searches, email and shop, Mint is hard to beat, as long as you're running within the box. I also have two Windows VM's on Mint (XP Pro & 7 Home Basic), and they look as good as a regular Windows install. No, you're not starting a war at all by your thread, you're in the proper place (off-topic), anything within reason is open. Hopefully, you'll get some more suggestions, and get your app going.

And don't worry about using Linux. From Ian on down, this forum is a damn good one, and as long as it doesn't spill over into the whole forum and cause disruption, nothing will be said. In fact, you may find a little help around here, there are a handful of Linux users onboard. I'd like to learn more myself.

Best of Luck,
Cat

 

[TrainableMan]

has always been a short-coming of linux

I should have said, a short-coming of switching to linux. Cat, is absolutely correct, it is not linux's fault that the manufacturers don't write drivers for their products to work in linux.

This can also be said of Windows, it is not Microsoft's fault that manufacturers don't write new drivers, especially 64-bit, for older devices to work in the newer Vista & 7 OS's.

Personally I believe the companies are missing an opportunity here, they want to sell new hardware and they give the drivers away but if they charged say $5 for new OS drivers, or for a linux drivers - people would pay it, just to use the hardware they have grown to love. Whereas them not supporting their old products can frustrate me so that when forced to upgrade I may try somebody new.

 

[msdos622wasfun]

Thanks everyone for your input. I certainly understand the situation, and I don't want to cast undue blame on the Linux platform regarding things that are not directly its fault. Obviously it's up to the hardware manufacturers to provide drivers for their devices to work with a specific OS. And whether or not a specific application can be found for an operating system is not a direct indicator of the potential quality or power of that platform, nor can you use that as a basis for drawing conclusions about its good or bad features or how well it was written. But as I'm sure you are all aware, the computing public tends to look at the "big picture" when they take these things into account. We ask how much software can I run with this computer and/or OS, how compatible is it with all of the other people with whom I share data, or will it work with this printer or that scanner that I happen to own.

Certainly I was very impressed when I was finally able to set up Ubuntu on my machine and make it work. It recognized the vast majority of my devices, and I even got the fancy-schmancy effects to work with my video card. But I think it got to the point where I didn't see the sense in juggling back and forth between multiple operating systems on the same computer. Again, we're back to why Windows is my core -- it's my all-purpose system, and it handles everything from basic computing and web-browsing to DVD authoring and audio/music production to high-end gaming and now even Blu-ray movie watching. Setting up wireless in our house with Windows 7 was a piece of cake. And recently I purchased Office 2007, and I'm quite fond of it.

But it is my view that Microsoft needs the presence of Apple and Linux to keep itself on its toes, to foster competition. I'd go so far as to say that I'd like to see Linux continue to grow, and maybe I'll come back to it some day. It's got so many things right -- the price (essentially free), the security, the freedom. Should be interesting to continue to watch it evolve.

 

[Core]

No, you cannot easily do that under Linux, and probably won't for a long time to come. Has nothing to do with Linux's shortcomings, and everything to do with money.

Products like Sonar, ACID, Reason, Final Cut Pro, etc aren't easy to make. These are very specialized software with a very specific target audience. There are guys who are working 9 to 5 working just on coding these products, providing patches, ensuring hardware support, blah blah blah. I'm sure it's not a tough call for the company in question to decide whether to support Windows' 95% market share, or that of Linux or OS X.

Oh, I forgot. Linux doesn't have a market share. There is no market. Linux apps are written by guys who work on those apps for name credit and PayPal donations after they get home from their real jobs. Linux users prefer free software. It's hard to talk them into spending $300 on Reason 5.

This has nothing to do with "Linux not being ready for the desktop" and everything to do with the companies that write the code or build the hardware. Linux does have support for the technology, it's just not being properly utilized, because there is much more money to be made writing for Windows.

It's not Linux's development that is holding this advancement back; it's the consumers who would rather let the software publishers or hardware vendors decide what operating system they should use, than vote with their money and their feet.

Case in point: I was recently in need of a new mouse. I am particular about my mice, so I went to look at several different ones at different stores. The packaging on some of them indicated support for Windows, but nothing about Mac or Linux. Not even Mac! Not officially supporting Linux I can accept, but I'm not buying a mouse, much less something more expensive, from a hardware vendor who can't be bothered to support something as common as a Mac.

 

[TrainableMan]

Let's be fair, Microsoft is one of the large manufacturers of mice/trackballs - there is very little incentive for them to support an OS other than their own; just like MAC doesn't support running their OS on non-MAC hardware.

 

[Core]

That is perfectly fine; I am more than happy to buy Logitech.

 

[msdos622wasfun]

I guess the question is, how can this be rectified? Or maybe an even better question is, should it be rectified?

I suppose it all comes back to what the ultimate goal of Linux or Open-Source is supposed to be. I think we can all agree that Linux has made an awful lot of progress. Sure, you can still look at it as being an operating system designed for hackers, but more and more often we are finding that it is being used by regular people to do their basic computing. But of course, I'm aware that it has made major inroads in certain other key areas, like servers and super computing.

So now you can say it's almost suffering from some sort of identity crisis. So many distributions have been spawned, and I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of people out there who have tried it and were basically expecting a completely "free" version of Microsoft Windows, that works exactly the same way, and runs the exact same applications. Then some of them gave up once they found out that this is not necessarily true.

Personally I like the idea that it's essentially run and managed by enthusiasts who are motivated not by profit or market share but by their passion for the technology and their belief in the philosophy behind the movement. But speaking for myself, and based on what my needs are, I can't help but think it would be cool if the developers in the Linux community got together and realized that there are guys like me who would benefit from the existence of some kind of Open-Source music recording application. It doesn't have to surpass or even equal the likes of Sonar or Logic -- but why not come up with something that at least covers most of the basics?

Of course, I'm aware of tools like WINE that let you run Windows apps, but sometimes native is better IMO, and from my own experience, I wasn't always able to get it to work correctly.

(I'd also like to add a little endnote here ... I understand the sacrifice involved in working on something for no monetary compensation. I'm also not going to be so bold as to claim that the Linux community "owes" me something. I simply use what works for me, and I don't mind paying for good software. These are just my personal viewpoints that I'm trying to be 100% honest about.)

 

[catilley1092]

I've used WINE myself in Mint 7 & 8, it's not like the real thing at all. Take IE6, for instance. It allows you to check for updates, but you can allow it to update forever and nothing happens. I just don't think there is enough support for WINE to make it feasible for the particular Linux OS to make it work properly. In fact, I recall a on a couple of occasions that they weren't receiving enough donations for the WINE project to keep it going much longer.

Most Linux users wants free software, and they typically fall into two groups. The first is the obvious, the ones who refuse to pay for software, period. They may have had a Windows license, then by not backing up, when a major hardware failure occured, the user had nothing to fall back on. Not wanting to pay for a replacement OS, the user turns to a Linux OS, learns the system enough to get by (and it's really easy to do) and sticks with Linux because it's free. These users are willing to accept the things that don't work as they are, and seldom contribute, if at all, to the OS. They turn to the OS's forum for help when they need it, but usually don't return to help others (this happens in Windows & Mac forums, too).

The second group, the more devoted and hard core users, spends a lot of time with the Linux OS of their choice, and can run it as good or better than Windows users can their computers. They are usually very intelligent, highly motivated and truly dedicated users. They usually are active helping "newbies", as the rookies are called in Linux terms. Many contribute art and source code, and other ideas, as well as money to keep the project going. After all, someone has to pay the bills for the OS to run on, or it will fall. The "good" OS's has plenty of devoted donors. Mint is a fine example of this. Born in 2006, they are the fourth most used OS in the world, trailing Windows (all), Apple Mac (all) and Ubuntu. This is a rapid climb for any OS in a four year period, and it didn't happen by accident or "luck". It happened because of the devotion of their community. They wanted a different Linux, and by countless hours of hard work, it was achieved.

As for me, I use various versions of Windows (7 is my main one) and a couple of Linux OS's (Mint 9 & Ubuntu, but mostly Mint). I just recently added XP Media Center Edition to my laptop (a modified XP Pro), I like it. In order to do it, one OS had to go (I had four), Vista bit the dust. I enjoy using various OS's, whether it's Windows or Linux, because it helps me learn. I enjoy learning, it keeps me going. But no OS can replace 7 for me, it does everything that I need it to, and with ease. Hopefully, the versions to come will be even better, both Windows & Mint.

Cat

 

[msdos622wasfun]

I understand what you're saying, Cat. In order for anything to flourish, it needs to be cultivated by people who seriously care about it, either in the form of economic contribution (purchasing software or donating), or participating in forums or writing code. I guess the best Linux distributions are the ones that have the most of these kinds of ingredients.

 

[Veedaz]

I'm not that up to date with music app as I tend to listen to out of date music but there are some interesting (not all free) apps for Linux > Here

 

[msdos622wasfun]

I'm not that up to date with music app as I tend to listen to out of date music but there are some interesting (not all free) apps for Linux > Here

Interesting! Thanks for the link, Veedaz. Perhaps I spoke to soon -- one should always do research when they talk about the availability of a certain kind of application for an operating system (I thought of that after I initiated this thread, but I haven't looked yet).

I'm going to keep this in mind, and maybe refer to it the next time I set up Linux on my system again.