BOOTMGR not found

Computer: Dell Inspiron 1764 (no Windows disk or Dell recovery disks)
System: 64-bit Windows 7 Home Premium SP1
Full backups on external USB hard drive (Acronis TI2011)
Available: bootable DVD of Acronis TI2011 (full)

The story:

My hard drive crashed, and I thought it would be no problem since I
had a full Acronis backup from the night before. But after a
successful Acronis restore, when I try to boot I get "BOOTMGR is
missing -- Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to restart". No way to get into the
recovery console.

What I've tried:

1. Ubuntu 32-bit boots fine from CD, and qparted says that the C
drive is bootable. I read advice on the Web to put the C partition
right smack at the start of the physical drive, and that's where it
is.

2. Advice on the Web says to do a repair install, which I would do if
I had a Windows disk. A friend has a Dell OEM disk of 32-bit Windows
7 Professional, but it declines to do the repair because it says the
Windows versions don't match. It *did* install successfully (putting
my 64-bit Windows as Windows Old), and 32-bit Win 7 Pro seems to run,
but Dell's site won't let me download 32-bit drivers because my
service tag is for a system with 64-bit Windows installed. And I
really don't think I can live with VGA screen resolution and no
touchpad driver. :-)

3. I then re-recovered my 64-bit Win 7 Home Premium, but apparently
the 32-bit Windows 7 install didn't create a boot record because when
I try to boot the recovered hard drive I again get "BOOTMGR is
missing".

4. In Acronis, when I browse to my backup of C, it gives me the
option to recover either or both of the C partition and the "MBR and
track 0". I checked both and Acronis said it was successful, but the
hard drive wouldn't boot. I then tried restoring *only* "MBR and
track 0", and again got the success message, but booting from hard
drive again gave "BOOTMGR is missing".

Questions:

(a) Should C maybe *not* be right at the start of the hard drive?
Maybe if there was some empty space before the first partition,
Acronis would not just give a success message but actually restore
the MBR? If so, how much empty space should I have?

(b) Any way to use an Ubuntu bootable disk to create a proper MBR
that Windows will accept? I'd rather not install Ubuntu in a
separate partition, because I like running it in a virtual machine
under Windrows, but if that's what it takes to get Windows working
I'm willing to do it.

(c) Howtogeek.com recommends buying a Windows repair disk from

http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/downlo...-x64-recovery-
disc/

Has anyone done this? I'm a little leery because of the possibility
of malware, and also I wonder if it's legal. I hold no brief for
Microsoft, but I don't want to buy pirate software. I'd be annoyed,
too, if I laid out $9.75 and it didn't work.

(d) Other suggestions? Surely someone before this has restored a
Windows system successfully from an Acronis backup. (As I write
these words I realize that I haven't yet posted to an Acronis forum.
I guess that's my next step, but I'll bet someone here in the Win 7
newsgroup has the requisite knowledge.)



--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Stan Brown wrote:

[Snip]
>
> (d) Other suggestions? Surely someone before this has restored a
> Windows system successfully from an Acronis backup. (As I write
> these words I realize that I haven't yet posted to an Acronis forum.
> I guess that's my next step, but I'll bet someone here in the Win 7
> newsgroup has the requisite knowledge.)
>
Yes I've done this several times with Windows 7 Home Premium 32 bit.
However on my installations I've always had Windows 7 in a single partition.
I believe that the preferred way is to have a small partition containing the
Windows system (what I would call a boot partition if I was talking about
Linux), and the main C: drive partition for everything else.

I'm guessing that you have made an image of your C: partition using Acronis
instead of the whole drive. Sorry I can't be of any help in resolving your
problem.

--
John

On 30/10/2011 19:43, Stan Brown wrote:
> Computer: Dell Inspiron 1764 (no Windows disk or Dell recovery disks)
> System: 64-bit Windows 7 Home Premium SP1
> Full backups on external USB hard drive (Acronis TI2011)
> Available: bootable DVD of Acronis TI2011 (full)
>
> The story:
>
> My hard drive crashed, and I thought it would be no problem since I
> had a full Acronis backup from the night before. But after a
> successful Acronis restore, when I try to boot I get "BOOTMGR is
> missing -- Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to restart". No way to get into the
> recovery console.
>
> What I've tried:
>
> 1. Ubuntu 32-bit boots fine from CD, and qparted says that the C
> drive is bootable. I read advice on the Web to put the C partition
> right smack at the start of the physical drive, and that's where it
> is.
>
> 2. Advice on the Web says to do a repair install, which I would do if
> I had a Windows disk. A friend has a Dell OEM disk of 32-bit Windows
> 7 Professional, but it declines to do the repair because it says the
> Windows versions don't match. It *did* install successfully (putting
> my 64-bit Windows as Windows Old), and 32-bit Win 7 Pro seems to run,
> but Dell's site won't let me download 32-bit drivers because my
> service tag is for a system with 64-bit Windows installed. And I
> really don't think I can live with VGA screen resolution and no
> touchpad driver. :-)
>
> 3. I then re-recovered my 64-bit Win 7 Home Premium, but apparently
> the 32-bit Windows 7 install didn't create a boot record because when
> I try to boot the recovered hard drive I again get "BOOTMGR is
> missing".
>
> 4. In Acronis, when I browse to my backup of C, it gives me the
> option to recover either or both of the C partition and the "MBR and
> track 0". I checked both and Acronis said it was successful, but the
> hard drive wouldn't boot. I then tried restoring *only* "MBR and
> track 0", and again got the success message, but booting from hard
> drive again gave "BOOTMGR is missing".
>
> Questions:
>
> (a) Should C maybe *not* be right at the start of the hard drive?
> Maybe if there was some empty space before the first partition,
> Acronis would not just give a success message but actually restore
> the MBR? If so, how much empty space should I have?
>
> (b) Any way to use an Ubuntu bootable disk to create a proper MBR
> that Windows will accept? I'd rather not install Ubuntu in a
> separate partition, because I like running it in a virtual machine
> under Windrows, but if that's what it takes to get Windows working
> I'm willing to do it.
>
> (c) Howtogeek.com recommends buying a Windows repair disk from
>
> http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/downlo...-x64-recovery-
> disc/
>
> Has anyone done this? I'm a little leery because of the possibility
> of malware, and also I wonder if it's legal. I hold no brief for
> Microsoft, but I don't want to buy pirate software. I'd be annoyed,
> too, if I laid out $9.75 and it didn't work.
>
> (d) Other suggestions? Surely someone before this has restored a
> Windows system successfully from an Acronis backup. (As I write
> these words I realize that I haven't yet posted to an Acronis forum.
> I guess that's my next step, but I'll bet someone here in the Win 7
> newsgroup has the requisite knowledge.)
>
>
>

You can get a recovery disk for free in lots of places on the Net.
And yes, I've done a repair of a non-booting Win7 64-bit partition using
one quite successfully.

So then, download an iso file, burn it to disk, boot from it and just
tell it to do its stuff.

Ed

Stan Brown wrote:
> Computer: Dell Inspiron 1764 (no Windows disk or Dell recovery disks)
> System: 64-bit Windows 7 Home Premium SP1
> Full backups on external USB hard drive (Acronis TI2011)
> Available: bootable DVD of Acronis TI2011 (full)
>
> The story:
>
> My hard drive crashed, and I thought it would be no problem since I
> had a full Acronis backup from the night before. But after a
> successful Acronis restore, when I try to boot I get "BOOTMGR is
> missing -- Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to restart". No way to get into the
> recovery console.
>
> What I've tried:
>
> 1. Ubuntu 32-bit boots fine from CD, and qparted says that the C
> drive is bootable. I read advice on the Web to put the C partition
> right smack at the start of the physical drive, and that's where it
> is.
>
> 2. Advice on the Web says to do a repair install, which I would do if
> I had a Windows disk. A friend has a Dell OEM disk of 32-bit Windows
> 7 Professional, but it declines to do the repair because it says the
> Windows versions don't match. It *did* install successfully (putting
> my 64-bit Windows as Windows Old), and 32-bit Win 7 Pro seems to run,
> but Dell's site won't let me download 32-bit drivers because my
> service tag is for a system with 64-bit Windows installed. And I
> really don't think I can live with VGA screen resolution and no
> touchpad driver. :-)
>
> 3. I then re-recovered my 64-bit Win 7 Home Premium, but apparently
> the 32-bit Windows 7 install didn't create a boot record because when
> I try to boot the recovered hard drive I again get "BOOTMGR is
> missing".
>
> 4. In Acronis, when I browse to my backup of C, it gives me the
> option to recover either or both of the C partition and the "MBR and
> track 0". I checked both and Acronis said it was successful, but the
> hard drive wouldn't boot. I then tried restoring *only* "MBR and
> track 0", and again got the success message, but booting from hard
> drive again gave "BOOTMGR is missing".
>
> Questions:
>
> (a) Should C maybe *not* be right at the start of the hard drive?
> Maybe if there was some empty space before the first partition,
> Acronis would not just give a success message but actually restore
> the MBR? If so, how much empty space should I have?
>
> (b) Any way to use an Ubuntu bootable disk to create a proper MBR
> that Windows will accept? I'd rather not install Ubuntu in a
> separate partition, because I like running it in a virtual machine
> under Windrows, but if that's what it takes to get Windows working
> I'm willing to do it.
>
> (c) Howtogeek.com recommends buying a Windows repair disk from
>
> http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/downlo...-x64-recovery-
> disc/
>
> Has anyone done this? I'm a little leery because of the possibility
> of malware, and also I wonder if it's legal. I hold no brief for
> Microsoft, but I don't want to buy pirate software. I'd be annoyed,
> too, if I laid out $9.75 and it didn't work.
>
> (d) Other suggestions? Surely someone before this has restored a
> Windows system successfully from an Acronis backup. (As I write
> these words I realize that I haven't yet posted to an Acronis forum.
> I guess that's my next step, but I'll bet someone here in the Win 7
> newsgroup has the requisite knowledge.)
>

Your computer should have prompted you, to make an approximately
200MB CDROM disc when you got the machine. That way, you don't have
to buy one from neosmart.net . The prompt for that, actually comes
from Microsoft, while the suggestion to burn backup media would come
from Dell. On my Acer laptop, on the second day of usage, I got a
prompt to burn the 200MB recovery CD, which I did. That one offers
this menu, where "startup repair" is an option. That repair option is intended
to fix booting issues (not restore files to factory state, which would
take a DVD or more). Like you, I don't have an installer disc to boot
to this prompt, and the 200MB recovery CD does this instead.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...s-in-Windows-7

When I actually tested that here, had a non-booting Windows 7, it
didn't work! I actually had to restore from a recent backup, to get
back running again. Which is what you'd expect, from "automation"...

At one time, neosmart.net listed a BitTorrent link to the file. Microsoft
made them take that link off their web page, which is why they've
resorted to "selling" the disc instead. Have a look here <wink> <nudge>.
The downloaded files are pointers to the images "out in space". Fetching
one of the two here, was the first and only time I tried a torrent. I
may have run Torrent software in Linux, to complete the operation, don't
remember the details (suffice to say, it was a throw away environment).
One irritation here, is comparing the MD5sum of these, to "real" images,
doesn't match. It may be the version of system they created those from
in the first place, that has something to do with it. I don't think the
images are tainted. But in an emergency, where you forgot to make the
real mccoy, these might be your only choice (to using the "restore to factory"
option on the laptop hard drive). As far as I know, the Torrent you
get today from using the pointers here, should be the same as when I
was playing with them.

http://web.archive.org/web/200912241...repair-discs/?

You're supposed to be able to boot an installer DVD, and run the same
"startup repair" option from there. But I don't know what amount
of "matching" is required, between the DVD type, and the installed
system. Links have been posted before, pointing to readily available
gigabyte sized download images of Windows 7 (coming from actual sources
like digitalriver). The only problem with those is, the version doesn't
*exactly* match what was used to make the laptop (they'd be retail
versions not unbranded OEM). Whether that would affect the boot repair
option, I can't say.

Someone also posted this the other day, but I don't know how practical
this is, and what subset of problems it solves. The Microsoft solution
would be my first choice, while this might be something I'd try, if there
was some kind of evidence it was all that was needed.

http://neosmart.net/wiki/display/EBC...r+with+EasyBCD

I just wish Microsoft had made that recovery CD a 200MB ISO9660 file, stored
somewhere on C:, so we'd have a way to fetch and burn a copy for people
who didn't make a copy on day one. I don't think it is stored that way,
and when the Microsoft tool burns a copy, it prepares the image
on the fly. I don't think it's stored in a way that is easy to get at.
(That's probably so it can incorporate any patches along the way, like
maybe after SP1 is installed, the recovery CD would be different ?)

If and when you get that 200MB CD, inside it you'll find a fairly small
set of files. One of the files will be quite large, and end in .wim .
If you have a copy of 7ZIP, you can "look inside" that .wim file, to see the
actual files in the recovery environment. (In fact, you can use 7ZIP to probe
the entire ISO9660 file, before you even burn it to a CD.) Some of the
directories are empty (structure), while at least one has files (content).
And somehow, they are used to build something to boot with at runtime,
likely partially stored in RAM. Linux has schemes like this as well, such as
squashfs.

So you don't have to pay $9.95. There are ways <wink> <nudge>. In
fact there are so many ways, it's hard to test them all.

HTH and good luck,

Paul

Does C: boot from anything. Maybe the disk is damaged. An Acronis
restore should get things working again.

On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 03:51:27 -0400, Paul <> wrotG:

>Stan Brown wrote:
>> Computer: Dell Inspiron 1764 (no Windows disk or Dell recovery disks)
>> System: 64-bit Windows 7 Home Premium SP1
>> Full backups on external USB hard drive (Acronis TI2011)
>> Available: bootable DVD of Acronis TI2011 (full)
>>
>> The story:
>>
>> My hard drive crashed, and I thought it would be no problem since I
>> had a full Acronis backup from the night before. But after a
>> successful Acronis restore, when I try to boot I get "BOOTMGR is
>> missing -- Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to restart". No way to get into the
>> recovery console.
>>
>> What I've tried:
>>
>> 1. Ubuntu 32-bit boots fine from CD, and qparted says that the C
>> drive is bootable. I read advice on the Web to put the C partition
>> right smack at the start of the physical drive, and that's where it
>> is.
>>
>> 2. Advice on the Web says to do a repair install, which I would do if
>> I had a Windows disk. A friend has a Dell OEM disk of 32-bit Windows
>> 7 Professional, but it declines to do the repair because it says the
>> Windows versions don't match. It *did* install successfully (putting
>> my 64-bit Windows as Windows Old), and 32-bit Win 7 Pro seems to run,
>> but Dell's site won't let me download 32-bit drivers because my
>> service tag is for a system with 64-bit Windows installed. And I
>> really don't think I can live with VGA screen resolution and no
>> touchpad driver. :-)
>>
>> 3. I then re-recovered my 64-bit Win 7 Home Premium, but apparently
>> the 32-bit Windows 7 install didn't create a boot record because when
>> I try to boot the recovered hard drive I again get "BOOTMGR is
>> missing".
>>
>> 4. In Acronis, when I browse to my backup of C, it gives me the
>> option to recover either or both of the C partition and the "MBR and
>> track 0". I checked both and Acronis said it was successful, but the
>> hard drive wouldn't boot. I then tried restoring *only* "MBR and
>> track 0", and again got the success message, but booting from hard
>> drive again gave "BOOTMGR is missing".
>>
>> Questions:
>>
>> (a) Should C maybe *not* be right at the start of the hard drive?
>> Maybe if there was some empty space before the first partition,
>> Acronis would not just give a success message but actually restore
>> the MBR? If so, how much empty space should I have?
>>
>> (b) Any way to use an Ubuntu bootable disk to create a proper MBR
>> that Windows will accept? I'd rather not install Ubuntu in a
>> separate partition, because I like running it in a virtual machine
>> under Windrows, but if that's what it takes to get Windows working
>> I'm willing to do it.
>>
>> (c) Howtogeek.com recommends buying a Windows repair disk from
>>
>> http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/downlo...-x64-recovery-
>> disc/
>>
>> Has anyone done this? I'm a little leery because of the possibility
>> of malware, and also I wonder if it's legal. I hold no brief for
>> Microsoft, but I don't want to buy pirate software. I'd be annoyed,
>> too, if I laid out $9.75 and it didn't work.
>>
>> (d) Other suggestions? Surely someone before this has restored a
>> Windows system successfully from an Acronis backup. (As I write
>> these words I realize that I haven't yet posted to an Acronis forum.
>> I guess that's my next step, but I'll bet someone here in the Win 7
>> newsgroup has the requisite knowledge.)
>>
>
>Your computer should have prompted you, to make an approximately
>200MB CDROM disc when you got the machine. That way, you don't have
>to buy one from neosmart.net . The prompt for that, actually comes
>from Microsoft, while the suggestion to burn backup media would come
>from Dell. On my Acer laptop, on the second day of usage, I got a
>prompt to burn the 200MB recovery CD, which I did. That one offers
>this menu, where "startup repair" is an option. That repair option is intended
>to fix booting issues (not restore files to factory state, which would
>take a DVD or more). Like you, I don't have an installer disc to boot
>to this prompt, and the 200MB recovery CD does this instead.
>
>http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...s-in-Windows-7
>
>When I actually tested that here, had a non-booting Windows 7, it
>didn't work! I actually had to restore from a recent backup, to get
>back running again. Which is what you'd expect, from "automation"...
>
>At one time, neosmart.net listed a BitTorrent link to the file. Microsoft
>made them take that link off their web page, which is why they've
>resorted to "selling" the disc instead. Have a look here <wink> <nudge>.
>The downloaded files are pointers to the images "out in space". Fetching
>one of the two here, was the first and only time I tried a torrent. I
>may have run Torrent software in Linux, to complete the operation, don't
>remember the details (suffice to say, it was a throw away environment).
> One irritation here, is comparing the MD5sum of these, to "real" images,
>doesn't match. It may be the version of system they created those from
>in the first place, that has something to do with it. I don't think the
>images are tainted. But in an emergency, where you forgot to make the
>real mccoy, these might be your only choice (to using the "restore to factory"
>option on the laptop hard drive). As far as I know, the Torrent you
>get today from using the pointers here, should be the same as when I
>was playing with them.
>
>http://web.archive.org/web/200912241...repair-discs/?
>
>You're supposed to be able to boot an installer DVD, and run the same
>"startup repair" option from there. But I don't know what amount
>of "matching" is required, between the DVD type, and the installed
>system. Links have been posted before, pointing to readily available
>gigabyte sized download images of Windows 7 (coming from actual sources
>like digitalriver). The only problem with those is, the version doesn't
>*exactly* match what was used to make the laptop (they'd be retail
>versions not unbranded OEM). Whether that would affect the boot repair
>option, I can't say.
>
>Someone also posted this the other day, but I don't know how practical
>this is, and what subset of problems it solves. The Microsoft solution
>would be my first choice, while this might be something I'd try, if there
>was some kind of evidence it was all that was needed.
>
>http://neosmart.net/wiki/display/EBC...r+with+EasyBCD
>
>I just wish Microsoft had made that recovery CD a 200MB ISO9660 file, stored
>somewhere on C:, so we'd have a way to fetch and burn a copy for people
>who didn't make a copy on day one. I don't think it is stored that way,
>and when the Microsoft tool burns a copy, it prepares the image
>on the fly. I don't think it's stored in a way that is easy to get at.
>(That's probably so it can incorporate any patches along the way, like
>maybe after SP1 is installed, the recovery CD would be different ?)
>
>If and when you get that 200MB CD, inside it you'll find a fairly small
>set of files. One of the files will be quite large, and end in .wim .
>If you have a copy of 7ZIP, you can "look inside" that .wim file, to see the
>actual files in the recovery environment. (In fact, you can use 7ZIP to probe
>the entire ISO9660 file, before you even burn it to a CD.) Some of the
>directories are empty (structure), while at least one has files (content).
>And somehow, they are used to build something to boot with at runtime,
>likely partially stored in RAM. Linux has schemes like this as well, such as
>squashfs.
>
>So you don't have to pay $9.95. There are ways <wink> <nudge>. In
>fact there are so many ways, it's hard to test them all.
>
>HTH and good luck,
>
> Paul

On 31/10/2011 07:51, Paul wrote:
> Stan Brown wrote:
>> Computer: Dell Inspiron 1764 (no Windows disk or Dell recovery disks)
>> System: 64-bit Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 Full backups on external USB
>> hard drive (Acronis TI2011)
>> Available: bootable DVD of Acronis TI2011 (full)
>>
>> The story:
>> My hard drive crashed, and I thought it would be no problem since I
>> had a full Acronis backup from the night before. But after a
>> successful Acronis restore, when I try to boot I get "BOOTMGR is
>> missing -- Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to restart". No way to get into the
>> recovery console.
>> What I've tried:
>>
>> 1. Ubuntu 32-bit boots fine from CD, and qparted says that the C drive
>> is bootable. I read advice on the Web to put the C partition right
>> smack at the start of the physical drive, and that's where it is.
>>
>> 2. Advice on the Web says to do a repair install, which I would do if
>> I had a Windows disk. A friend has a Dell OEM disk of 32-bit Windows 7
>> Professional, but it declines to do the repair because it says the
>> Windows versions don't match. It *did* install successfully (putting
>> my 64-bit Windows as Windows Old), and 32-bit Win 7 Pro seems to run,
>> but Dell's site won't let me download 32-bit drivers because my
>> service tag is for a system with 64-bit Windows installed. And I
>> really don't think I can live with VGA screen resolution and no
>> touchpad driver. :-)
>>
>> 3. I then re-recovered my 64-bit Win 7 Home Premium, but apparently
>> the 32-bit Windows 7 install didn't create a boot record because when
>> I try to boot the recovered hard drive I again get "BOOTMGR is missing".
>>
>> 4. In Acronis, when I browse to my backup of C, it gives me the option
>> to recover either or both of the C partition and the "MBR and track
>> 0". I checked both and Acronis said it was successful, but the hard
>> drive wouldn't boot. I then tried restoring *only* "MBR and track 0",
>> and again got the success message, but booting from hard drive again
>> gave "BOOTMGR is missing".
>>
>> Questions:
>> (a) Should C maybe *not* be right at the start of the hard drive?
>> Maybe if there was some empty space before the first partition,
>> Acronis would not just give a success message but actually restore the
>> MBR? If so, how much empty space should I have?
>>
>> (b) Any way to use an Ubuntu bootable disk to create a proper MBR that
>> Windows will accept? I'd rather not install Ubuntu in a separate
>> partition, because I like running it in a virtual machine under
>> Windrows, but if that's what it takes to get Windows working I'm
>> willing to do it.
>>
>> (c) Howtogeek.com recommends buying a Windows repair disk from
>> http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/downlo...-x64-recovery-
>> disc/
>>
>> Has anyone done this? I'm a little leery because of the possibility of
>> malware, and also I wonder if it's legal. I hold no brief for
>> Microsoft, but I don't want to buy pirate software. I'd be annoyed,
>> too, if I laid out $9.75 and it didn't work.
>>
>> (d) Other suggestions? Surely someone before this has restored a
>> Windows system successfully from an Acronis backup. (As I write these
>> words I realize that I haven't yet posted to an Acronis forum. I guess
>> that's my next step, but I'll bet someone here in the Win 7 newsgroup
>> has the requisite knowledge.)
>>
>
> Your computer should have prompted you, to make an approximately
> 200MB CDROM disc when you got the machine. That way, you don't have
> to buy one from neosmart.net . The prompt for that, actually comes
> from Microsoft, while the suggestion to burn backup media would come
> from Dell. On my Acer laptop, on the second day of usage, I got a
> prompt to burn the 200MB recovery CD, which I did. That one offers
> this menu, where "startup repair" is an option. That repair option is
> intended
> to fix booting issues (not restore files to factory state, which would
> take a DVD or more). Like you, I don't have an installer disc to boot
> to this prompt, and the 200MB recovery CD does this instead.
>
> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...s-in-Windows-7
>
>
> When I actually tested that here, had a non-booting Windows 7, it
> didn't work! I actually had to restore from a recent backup, to get
> back running again. Which is what you'd expect, from "automation"...
>
> At one time, neosmart.net listed a BitTorrent link to the file. Microsoft
> made them take that link off their web page, which is why they've
> resorted to "selling" the disc instead. Have a look here <wink> <nudge>.
> The downloaded files are pointers to the images "out in space". Fetching
> one of the two here, was the first and only time I tried a torrent. I
> may have run Torrent software in Linux, to complete the operation, don't
> remember the details (suffice to say, it was a throw away environment).
> One irritation here, is comparing the MD5sum of these, to "real" images,
> doesn't match. It may be the version of system they created those from
> in the first place, that has something to do with it. I don't think the
> images are tainted. But in an emergency, where you forgot to make the
> real mccoy, these might be your only choice (to using the "restore to
> factory"
> option on the laptop hard drive). As far as I know, the Torrent you
> get today from using the pointers here, should be the same as when I
> was playing with them.
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/200912241...repair-discs/?
>
>
> You're supposed to be able to boot an installer DVD, and run the same
> "startup repair" option from there. But I don't know what amount
> of "matching" is required, between the DVD type, and the installed
> system. Links have been posted before, pointing to readily available
> gigabyte sized download images of Windows 7 (coming from actual sources
> like digitalriver). The only problem with those is, the version doesn't
> *exactly* match what was used to make the laptop (they'd be retail
> versions not unbranded OEM). Whether that would affect the boot repair
> option, I can't say.
>
> Someone also posted this the other day, but I don't know how practical
> this is, and what subset of problems it solves. The Microsoft solution
> would be my first choice, while this might be something I'd try, if there
> was some kind of evidence it was all that was needed.
>
> http://neosmart.net/wiki/display/EBC...r+with+EasyBCD
>
>
> I just wish Microsoft had made that recovery CD a 200MB ISO9660 file,
> stored
> somewhere on C:, so we'd have a way to fetch and burn a copy for people
> who didn't make a copy on day one. I don't think it is stored that way,
> and when the Microsoft tool burns a copy, it prepares the image
> on the fly. I don't think it's stored in a way that is easy to get at.
> (That's probably so it can incorporate any patches along the way, like
> maybe after SP1 is installed, the recovery CD would be different ?)
>
> If and when you get that 200MB CD, inside it you'll find a fairly small
> set of files. One of the files will be quite large, and end in .wim .
> If you have a copy of 7ZIP, you can "look inside" that .wim file, to see
> the
> actual files in the recovery environment. (In fact, you can use 7ZIP to
> probe
> the entire ISO9660 file, before you even burn it to a CD.) Some of the
> directories are empty (structure), while at least one has files (content).
> And somehow, they are used to build something to boot with at runtime,
> likely partially stored in RAM. Linux has schemes like this as well,
> such as
> squashfs.
>
> So you don't have to pay $9.95. There are ways <wink> <nudge>. In
> fact there are so many ways, it's hard to test them all.
>
> HTH and good luck,
>
> Paul

I should think a Win7 System Repair disk would be even easier to borrow
than an Installation disk. Both will help the OP here.
When MS offer you a free Win7 Installation disk for downloading it seems
utter cheek for anybody to charge for a Repair one.
And you can get both quite legally (and free) on the Net. There's no
"wink wink" about it at all; just simply knowing where to call.
Try this one, for instance. Follow the links on the page (one for
32-bit, one for 64-bit) and wait about 50 seconds on the target page.
http://lair360.co.uk/blog/1053/windo...disk-iso-file/

Ed

Ed Cryer wrote:
> On 31/10/2011 07:51, Paul wrote:
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>> Computer: Dell Inspiron 1764 (no Windows disk or Dell recovery disks)
>>> System: 64-bit Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 Full backups on external USB
>>> hard drive (Acronis TI2011)
>>> Available: bootable DVD of Acronis TI2011 (full)
>>>
>>> The story:
>>> My hard drive crashed, and I thought it would be no problem since I
>>> had a full Acronis backup from the night before. But after a
>>> successful Acronis restore, when I try to boot I get "BOOTMGR is
>>> missing -- Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to restart". No way to get into the
>>> recovery console.
>>> What I've tried:
>>>
>>> 1. Ubuntu 32-bit boots fine from CD, and qparted says that the C drive
>>> is bootable. I read advice on the Web to put the C partition right
>>> smack at the start of the physical drive, and that's where it is.
>>>
>>> 2. Advice on the Web says to do a repair install, which I would do if
>>> I had a Windows disk. A friend has a Dell OEM disk of 32-bit Windows 7
>>> Professional, but it declines to do the repair because it says the
>>> Windows versions don't match. It *did* install successfully (putting
>>> my 64-bit Windows as Windows Old), and 32-bit Win 7 Pro seems to run,
>>> but Dell's site won't let me download 32-bit drivers because my
>>> service tag is for a system with 64-bit Windows installed. And I
>>> really don't think I can live with VGA screen resolution and no
>>> touchpad driver. :-)
>>>
>>> 3. I then re-recovered my 64-bit Win 7 Home Premium, but apparently
>>> the 32-bit Windows 7 install didn't create a boot record because when
>>> I try to boot the recovered hard drive I again get "BOOTMGR is missing".
>>>
>>> 4. In Acronis, when I browse to my backup of C, it gives me the option
>>> to recover either or both of the C partition and the "MBR and track
>>> 0". I checked both and Acronis said it was successful, but the hard
>>> drive wouldn't boot. I then tried restoring *only* "MBR and track 0",
>>> and again got the success message, but booting from hard drive again
>>> gave "BOOTMGR is missing".
>>>
>>> Questions:
>>> (a) Should C maybe *not* be right at the start of the hard drive?
>>> Maybe if there was some empty space before the first partition,
>>> Acronis would not just give a success message but actually restore the
>>> MBR? If so, how much empty space should I have?
>>>
>>> (b) Any way to use an Ubuntu bootable disk to create a proper MBR that
>>> Windows will accept? I'd rather not install Ubuntu in a separate
>>> partition, because I like running it in a virtual machine under
>>> Windrows, but if that's what it takes to get Windows working I'm
>>> willing to do it.
>>>
>>> (c) Howtogeek.com recommends buying a Windows repair disk from
>>> http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/downlo...-x64-recovery-
>>> disc/
>>>
>>> Has anyone done this? I'm a little leery because of the possibility of
>>> malware, and also I wonder if it's legal. I hold no brief for
>>> Microsoft, but I don't want to buy pirate software. I'd be annoyed,
>>> too, if I laid out $9.75 and it didn't work.
>>>
>>> (d) Other suggestions? Surely someone before this has restored a
>>> Windows system successfully from an Acronis backup. (As I write these
>>> words I realize that I haven't yet posted to an Acronis forum. I guess
>>> that's my next step, but I'll bet someone here in the Win 7 newsgroup
>>> has the requisite knowledge.)
>>>
>>
>> Your computer should have prompted you, to make an approximately
>> 200MB CDROM disc when you got the machine. That way, you don't have
>> to buy one from neosmart.net . The prompt for that, actually comes
>> from Microsoft, while the suggestion to burn backup media would come
>> from Dell. On my Acer laptop, on the second day of usage, I got a
>> prompt to burn the 200MB recovery CD, which I did. That one offers
>> this menu, where "startup repair" is an option. That repair option is
>> intended
>> to fix booting issues (not restore files to factory state, which would
>> take a DVD or more). Like you, I don't have an installer disc to boot
>> to this prompt, and the 200MB recovery CD does this instead.
>>
>> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...s-in-Windows-7
>>
>>
>>
>> When I actually tested that here, had a non-booting Windows 7, it
>> didn't work! I actually had to restore from a recent backup, to get
>> back running again. Which is what you'd expect, from "automation"...
>>
>> At one time, neosmart.net listed a BitTorrent link to the file. Microsoft
>> made them take that link off their web page, which is why they've
>> resorted to "selling" the disc instead. Have a look here <wink> <nudge>.
>> The downloaded files are pointers to the images "out in space". Fetching
>> one of the two here, was the first and only time I tried a torrent. I
>> may have run Torrent software in Linux, to complete the operation, don't
>> remember the details (suffice to say, it was a throw away environment).
>> One irritation here, is comparing the MD5sum of these, to "real" images,
>> doesn't match. It may be the version of system they created those from
>> in the first place, that has something to do with it. I don't think the
>> images are tainted. But in an emergency, where you forgot to make the
>> real mccoy, these might be your only choice (to using the "restore to
>> factory"
>> option on the laptop hard drive). As far as I know, the Torrent you
>> get today from using the pointers here, should be the same as when I
>> was playing with them.
>>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/200912241...repair-discs/?
>>
>>
>>
>> You're supposed to be able to boot an installer DVD, and run the same
>> "startup repair" option from there. But I don't know what amount
>> of "matching" is required, between the DVD type, and the installed
>> system. Links have been posted before, pointing to readily available
>> gigabyte sized download images of Windows 7 (coming from actual sources
>> like digitalriver). The only problem with those is, the version doesn't
>> *exactly* match what was used to make the laptop (they'd be retail
>> versions not unbranded OEM). Whether that would affect the boot repair
>> option, I can't say.
>>
>> Someone also posted this the other day, but I don't know how practical
>> this is, and what subset of problems it solves. The Microsoft solution
>> would be my first choice, while this might be something I'd try, if there
>> was some kind of evidence it was all that was needed.
>>
>> http://neosmart.net/wiki/display/EBC...r+with+EasyBCD
>>
>>
>>
>> I just wish Microsoft had made that recovery CD a 200MB ISO9660 file,
>> stored
>> somewhere on C:, so we'd have a way to fetch and burn a copy for people
>> who didn't make a copy on day one. I don't think it is stored that way,
>> and when the Microsoft tool burns a copy, it prepares the image
>> on the fly. I don't think it's stored in a way that is easy to get at.
>> (That's probably so it can incorporate any patches along the way, like
>> maybe after SP1 is installed, the recovery CD would be different ?)
>>
>> If and when you get that 200MB CD, inside it you'll find a fairly small
>> set of files. One of the files will be quite large, and end in .wim .
>> If you have a copy of 7ZIP, you can "look inside" that .wim file, to see
>> the
>> actual files in the recovery environment. (In fact, you can use 7ZIP to
>> probe
>> the entire ISO9660 file, before you even burn it to a CD.) Some of the
>> directories are empty (structure), while at least one has files
>> (content).
>> And somehow, they are used to build something to boot with at runtime,
>> likely partially stored in RAM. Linux has schemes like this as well,
>> such as
>> squashfs.
>>
>> So you don't have to pay $9.95. There are ways <wink> <nudge>. In
>> fact there are so many ways, it's hard to test them all.
>>
>> HTH and good luck,
>>
>> Paul
>
> I should think a Win7 System Repair disk would be even easier to borrow
> than an Installation disk. Both will help the OP here.
> When MS offer you a free Win7 Installation disk for downloading it seems
> utter cheek for anybody to charge for a Repair one.
> And you can get both quite legally (and free) on the Net. There's no
> "wink wink" about it at all; just simply knowing where to call.
> Try this one, for instance. Follow the links on the page (one for
> 32-bit, one for 64-bit) and wait about 50 seconds on the target page.
> http://lair360.co.uk/blog/1053/windo...disk-iso-file/
>
> Ed

Rather than get into an argument about which file is the best, we can go
about this another way.

1) Back up the computer, as it currently stands, to some external device.
We're going to put it back eventually, so an image is required. If the
OP needs a recipe, the backup solution is going to depend to some
extent, on the size of the system disk, and what backup disks are
available. Perhaps the existing backup is good enough, as we know
things are already broken, and can use that image to restore again.

2) Since this is a royalty OEM install, with no DVDs, use the built-in
"return to factory capability". This will wipe everything, but that's
why we made the backup. The user manual that came in the box, should
describe the function key to press, to get to that early menu and
restore to factory. If this process fails to work, then the OP will need
to go to the manufacturer and get the DVD set for restoration. or,
if a set of reinstallation DVDs were burned, those could be used.

3) Once a pristine Windows 7 is running again, go to the appropriate place
in the interface, and request the burning of the recovery CD.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...em-repair-disc

4) Restore the system using the content backed up in step 1.

5) Boot the system with the newly obtained ~200MB recovery CD.
Select the "repair" option, and cross fingers.

Materials required - a backup disk big enough for the job,
plus a blank CD.

HTH,
Paul

On 31/10/2011 14:51, Paul wrote:
> Ed Cryer wrote:
>> On 31/10/2011 07:51, Paul wrote:
>>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>>> Computer: Dell Inspiron 1764 (no Windows disk or Dell recovery disks)
>>>> System: 64-bit Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 Full backups on external USB
>>>> hard drive (Acronis TI2011)
>>>> Available: bootable DVD of Acronis TI2011 (full)
>>>>
>>>> The story:
>>>> My hard drive crashed, and I thought it would be no problem since I
>>>> had a full Acronis backup from the night before. But after a
>>>> successful Acronis restore, when I try to boot I get "BOOTMGR is
>>>> missing -- Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to restart". No way to get into the
>>>> recovery console.
>>>> What I've tried:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Ubuntu 32-bit boots fine from CD, and qparted says that the C drive
>>>> is bootable. I read advice on the Web to put the C partition right
>>>> smack at the start of the physical drive, and that's where it is.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Advice on the Web says to do a repair install, which I would do if
>>>> I had a Windows disk. A friend has a Dell OEM disk of 32-bit Windows 7
>>>> Professional, but it declines to do the repair because it says the
>>>> Windows versions don't match. It *did* install successfully (putting
>>>> my 64-bit Windows as Windows Old), and 32-bit Win 7 Pro seems to run,
>>>> but Dell's site won't let me download 32-bit drivers because my
>>>> service tag is for a system with 64-bit Windows installed. And I
>>>> really don't think I can live with VGA screen resolution and no
>>>> touchpad driver. :-)
>>>>
>>>> 3. I then re-recovered my 64-bit Win 7 Home Premium, but apparently
>>>> the 32-bit Windows 7 install didn't create a boot record because when
>>>> I try to boot the recovered hard drive I again get "BOOTMGR is
>>>> missing".
>>>>
>>>> 4. In Acronis, when I browse to my backup of C, it gives me the option
>>>> to recover either or both of the C partition and the "MBR and track
>>>> 0". I checked both and Acronis said it was successful, but the hard
>>>> drive wouldn't boot. I then tried restoring *only* "MBR and track 0",
>>>> and again got the success message, but booting from hard drive again
>>>> gave "BOOTMGR is missing".
>>>>
>>>> Questions:
>>>> (a) Should C maybe *not* be right at the start of the hard drive?
>>>> Maybe if there was some empty space before the first partition,
>>>> Acronis would not just give a success message but actually restore the
>>>> MBR? If so, how much empty space should I have?
>>>>
>>>> (b) Any way to use an Ubuntu bootable disk to create a proper MBR that
>>>> Windows will accept? I'd rather not install Ubuntu in a separate
>>>> partition, because I like running it in a virtual machine under
>>>> Windrows, but if that's what it takes to get Windows working I'm
>>>> willing to do it.
>>>>
>>>> (c) Howtogeek.com recommends buying a Windows repair disk from
>>>> http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/downlo...-x64-recovery-
>>>> disc/
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone done this? I'm a little leery because of the possibility of
>>>> malware, and also I wonder if it's legal. I hold no brief for
>>>> Microsoft, but I don't want to buy pirate software. I'd be annoyed,
>>>> too, if I laid out $9.75 and it didn't work.
>>>>
>>>> (d) Other suggestions? Surely someone before this has restored a
>>>> Windows system successfully from an Acronis backup. (As I write these
>>>> words I realize that I haven't yet posted to an Acronis forum. I guess
>>>> that's my next step, but I'll bet someone here in the Win 7 newsgroup
>>>> has the requisite knowledge.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Your computer should have prompted you, to make an approximately
>>> 200MB CDROM disc when you got the machine. That way, you don't have
>>> to buy one from neosmart.net . The prompt for that, actually comes
>>> from Microsoft, while the suggestion to burn backup media would come
>>> from Dell. On my Acer laptop, on the second day of usage, I got a
>>> prompt to burn the 200MB recovery CD, which I did. That one offers
>>> this menu, where "startup repair" is an option. That repair option is
>>> intended
>>> to fix booting issues (not restore files to factory state, which would
>>> take a DVD or more). Like you, I don't have an installer disc to boot
>>> to this prompt, and the 200MB recovery CD does this instead.
>>>
>>> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...s-in-Windows-7
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When I actually tested that here, had a non-booting Windows 7, it
>>> didn't work! I actually had to restore from a recent backup, to get
>>> back running again. Which is what you'd expect, from "automation"...
>>>
>>> At one time, neosmart.net listed a BitTorrent link to the file.
>>> Microsoft
>>> made them take that link off their web page, which is why they've
>>> resorted to "selling" the disc instead. Have a look here <wink> <nudge>.
>>> The downloaded files are pointers to the images "out in space". Fetching
>>> one of the two here, was the first and only time I tried a torrent. I
>>> may have run Torrent software in Linux, to complete the operation, don't
>>> remember the details (suffice to say, it was a throw away environment).
>>> One irritation here, is comparing the MD5sum of these, to "real" images,
>>> doesn't match. It may be the version of system they created those from
>>> in the first place, that has something to do with it. I don't think the
>>> images are tainted. But in an emergency, where you forgot to make the
>>> real mccoy, these might be your only choice (to using the "restore to
>>> factory"
>>> option on the laptop hard drive). As far as I know, the Torrent you
>>> get today from using the pointers here, should be the same as when I
>>> was playing with them.
>>>
>>> http://web.archive.org/web/200912241...repair-discs/?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You're supposed to be able to boot an installer DVD, and run the same
>>> "startup repair" option from there. But I don't know what amount
>>> of "matching" is required, between the DVD type, and the installed
>>> system. Links have been posted before, pointing to readily available
>>> gigabyte sized download images of Windows 7 (coming from actual sources
>>> like digitalriver). The only problem with those is, the version doesn't
>>> *exactly* match what was used to make the laptop (they'd be retail
>>> versions not unbranded OEM). Whether that would affect the boot repair
>>> option, I can't say.
>>>
>>> Someone also posted this the other day, but I don't know how practical
>>> this is, and what subset of problems it solves. The Microsoft solution
>>> would be my first choice, while this might be something I'd try, if
>>> there
>>> was some kind of evidence it was all that was needed.
>>>
>>> http://neosmart.net/wiki/display/EBC...r+with+EasyBCD
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I just wish Microsoft had made that recovery CD a 200MB ISO9660 file,
>>> stored
>>> somewhere on C:, so we'd have a way to fetch and burn a copy for people
>>> who didn't make a copy on day one. I don't think it is stored that way,
>>> and when the Microsoft tool burns a copy, it prepares the image
>>> on the fly. I don't think it's stored in a way that is easy to get at.
>>> (That's probably so it can incorporate any patches along the way, like
>>> maybe after SP1 is installed, the recovery CD would be different ?)
>>>
>>> If and when you get that 200MB CD, inside it you'll find a fairly small
>>> set of files. One of the files will be quite large, and end in .wim .
>>> If you have a copy of 7ZIP, you can "look inside" that .wim file, to see
>>> the
>>> actual files in the recovery environment. (In fact, you can use 7ZIP to
>>> probe
>>> the entire ISO9660 file, before you even burn it to a CD.) Some of the
>>> directories are empty (structure), while at least one has files
>>> (content).
>>> And somehow, they are used to build something to boot with at runtime,
>>> likely partially stored in RAM. Linux has schemes like this as well,
>>> such as
>>> squashfs.
>>>
>>> So you don't have to pay $9.95. There are ways <wink> <nudge>. In
>>> fact there are so many ways, it's hard to test them all.
>>>
>>> HTH and good luck,
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>> I should think a Win7 System Repair disk would be even easier to
>> borrow than an Installation disk. Both will help the OP here.
>> When MS offer you a free Win7 Installation disk for downloading it
>> seems utter cheek for anybody to charge for a Repair one.
>> And you can get both quite legally (and free) on the Net. There's no
>> "wink wink" about it at all; just simply knowing where to call.
>> Try this one, for instance. Follow the links on the page (one for
>> 32-bit, one for 64-bit) and wait about 50 seconds on the target page.
>> http://lair360.co.uk/blog/1053/windo...disk-iso-file/
>>
>> Ed
>
> Rather than get into an argument about which file is the best, we can go
> about this another way.
>
> 1) Back up the computer, as it currently stands, to some external device.
> We're going to put it back eventually, so an image is required. If the
> OP needs a recipe, the backup solution is going to depend to some
> extent, on the size of the system disk, and what backup disks are
> available. Perhaps the existing backup is good enough, as we know
> things are already broken, and can use that image to restore again.
>
> 2) Since this is a royalty OEM install, with no DVDs, use the built-in
> "return to factory capability". This will wipe everything, but that's
> why we made the backup. The user manual that came in the box, should
> describe the function key to press, to get to that early menu and
> restore to factory. If this process fails to work, then the OP will need
> to go to the manufacturer and get the DVD set for restoration. or,
> if a set of reinstallation DVDs were burned, those could be used.
>
> 3) Once a pristine Windows 7 is running again, go to the appropriate place
> in the interface, and request the burning of the recovery CD.
>
> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...em-repair-disc
>
> 4) Restore the system using the content backed up in step 1.
>
> 5) Boot the system with the newly obtained ~200MB recovery CD.
> Select the "repair" option, and cross fingers.
>
> Materials required - a backup disk big enough for the job,
> plus a blank CD.
>
> HTH,
> Paul


Yes, I won't argue with that.
You and I have been through all this together during my recent battle
with Win8. We scored a 100% success with that, and I can't begin to tell
you all the good it did me. I feel I could take on almost any system
problem going and win out with a bit of stoic perseverance.

There are two issues from this as I see it;
1. The pragmatic job of recovery.
2. Finding out why it happened.

If the OP just booted with MS Repair option, and it worked, then some
people could just sleep easy with that, and get on with their life.
Me, it'd bug me until I found out what had corrupted the boot files.
(And that's why I call the battle with Win8 "100% success"; because we
solved both those questions in toto.)

He says he had an Acronis system image, and he restored from image >>>
boot manager missing.
I'm wondering, though, if he did actually put a new hd in. He doesn't
say specifically. That could be a reason for his current problem.
Also he says he can't get into the recovery console, but he doesn't say
whether he's tried hitting the F8 key which is the usual method; and you
have to hit it a couple of times per second to ensure that it gets
picked up by a system that has the wait-time set to minimum.

Ed

On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:58:13 +0000, Ed Cryer <>
wrote:

>There are two issues from this as I see it;
>1. The pragmatic job of recovery.
>2. Finding out why it happened.
>
>If the OP just booted with MS Repair option, and it worked, then some
>people could just sleep easy with that, and get on with their life.
>Me, it'd bug me until I found out what had corrupted the boot files.
>(And that's why I call the battle with Win8 "100% success"; because we
>solved both those questions in toto.)
>
>He says he had an Acronis system image, and he restored from image >>>
>boot manager missing.

My Acronis backups are always disk images, but there's also the
option, (and I believe it's the default), to create a partition image.
It seems to me that a partition image wouldn't necessarily include the
boot files and/or boot sector, right?

--

Char Jackson

On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 18:58:02 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 20:58:13 +0000, Ed Cryer <>
> wrote:
>
>>There are two issues from this as I see it;
>>1. The pragmatic job of recovery.
>>2. Finding out why it happened.
>>
>>If the OP just booted with MS Repair option, and it worked, then some
>>people could just sleep easy with that, and get on with their life.
>>Me, it'd bug me until I found out what had corrupted the boot files.
>>(And that's why I call the battle with Win8 "100% success"; because we
>>solved both those questions in toto.)
>>
>>He says he had an Acronis system image, and he restored from image >>>
>>boot manager missing.
>
> My Acronis backups are always disk images, but there's also the
> option, (and I believe it's the default), to create a partition image.
> It seems to me that a partition image wouldn't necessarily include the
> boot files and/or boot sector, right?

That's the impression I get with similar choices in Macrium.

In fact, it's pretty clear in the progress screen and later in the log
file. If I choose partition, only the C: partition is written. If I
choose disk, the unlabeled 100MB partition is also copied. That's the
boot partition (or is it the system partition?).

Macrium's interface is pretty strange & obscure in the new version 5.x,
but I managed to puzzle it out enough to make those choices and to see
the above behavior.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)